aerodynamics

[zooracer]

I did a search, but didnt see anything, so here goes.
I want to do a few things.
The air filter is an open element K&N and I want to build a box or sheild to keep heat from the headers. I then want to put a shield to stop air from entering the engine compartment through a large opening I have next to the radiator. I could even direct some air from this opening toward the air filter?
Wondering about the legality of this...

[Knestis]

IANATI but you are allowed to build a box for the air filter, as long as the entire thing is inside the engine compartment. If that box is in front of a hole in the grill - a hole that is there for a legal reason - and the box is open so that air goes into it, I'd have a hard time finding a problem with that.

My biggest question is about that hole and why it's there. That isn't typical practice for a manufacturer.

K

[zooracer]

Great! I am going to work on it today.
The hole is more like an open space behind the grill next to the radiator.
I have a hard time remebering, but I think the A/C condensor was filling this space at one time.
At first I was going to block it off, so that more air would hit the radiator, rather then blowing against the headers.
But then I thought about making it so some of that air funneled into the air intake filter.
Now I just need to figure out how to make a splitter/air dam...

[charrbq]

You can pretty much design anything you want to direct air to the intake as long as you don't cut holes or build something that would pressurize the carbs at speed. You can use all sorts of "blocking panels" and air ducting devices to get cool air to the intake. Just don't cut holes or use something like a headlight bucket or turn signal, etc.


------------------
Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic

[Knestis]

I'm going to voice some caution about "pretty much design anything."

If I just put a panel over a big gap in the grill opening, left by the installation of a slightly smaller radiator for example, I'd be doing so without a rule leg to stand on.

If I were looking to protest you, I'd expect that your "airbox" would all be one piece. If you had a panel, not mounted to the box, that turns air to where you want it, I'd ask you to show me which rule allows you to do it.

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Please also show me where you can "duct" or 'direct' air to the intake. I think MANY people take EXTREME liberties with these rules.

Your "BOX" that you create around the filter must be attached to the filter and it would be legal under the open filter rule. If it isn't - it isn't. Ducting air to the air intake - don't see any provisions for it, and frankly I see a few rules that specifically disallow it.

Break out your GCR's and bring it on!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[zracre]

What about the heat shield to keep the hot air from the air filter???

------------------
Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Andy Bettencourt]

Show me some rules that allow what you are talking about....but I will play:

A heat sheild attached to the header (free) is legal. It can not however duct air to the intake. An allowed mod can not in turn facilitate an illegal one (GCR). Rules like: Air must be sourced from inside the engine bay, Ram air systems being illegal, holes created from fitting alternate radiators must not be used to provide air to the intake, etc are all in place to dissallow such ducting.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[JeffYoung]

Interesting debate.

My question: My carbs were originally fed by two hoses that attached to a plastic duct in the lower left and lower right front fender. The hose then ran to a bi-valve that was itself connected to the stock manifolds. When cold, the car drew air off the manifolds for emissions purposes. When warm, the car had a crude ram air system to the front fender holes.

NOW, I want to move the air intake point from the "ram air" inlets (which are crap, and pick up all kinds of crap), to the low pressure zone right in front of the windshield.

I intend to build an air box to hold a K&N filter and rivet it to the fire wall, and then run the EXISTING stock hoses to the air box.

Legal? I'm using a stock hose, but I'm running it to an air box that is NOT connected to the "stock" filter location -- in fact, I've moved the filter location in its entirety to the base of the windshield.

I THINK that because I am using essentially the stock setup -- hoses drawing air to the carbs -- moving the filter and the box to a new location within the engine bay is legal.

Thoughts?

[Andy Bettencourt]

Just make sure your air box is 'part of' the FREE filter. Otherwise, you have created something that nobody will be able to find in the rules that says you can...

"Ram Air" set-ups are prohiobited unless fitted as original equipment...sounds like you fall under that OEM disclaimer...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[dickita15]

2005 gcr definitions, pg 166

"Ram Air - A type of induction systemin which the incoming air is obtained from an extension into the airstream outside the body work."

the term Ram air does not apply in this discussion.

itcs 17.1.4.D.1.c (pg5) "..air intake hoses, tubes,pipes, resonators, intake mufflers, housings, ect., located ahead of the air metering/measuring device (i.e. air flow meter, mass air meter) may be removed or substituted."
I think this gives you quite a bit of flexability in designing a airbox/filter structure. as long as you stay withing the engine compartment and make no new openings. i disagree that the "ducting" you want to ad has to be attached and one piece, but i understant the argument and you can easly design your airbox to blunt that objection.

I would however be very very sure of the history of the opening next to the radiator that you can't quite remember what it was for. most of us would love to have such an opening so we will be jealous.

dick patullo

[zracre]

Thank you....very clear what can be done there...it is amazing what can be found in that book http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

------------------
Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Renaultfool]

Jeff Young, ITCS 17.1.4 D.1 c. ...."Air intake source shall be within the confines of the engine compartment OR THE STOCK LOCATION"........ If it did not pull air from in front of the windshield before, it cannot now, you cannot make a hole for it to pull from in that area. You can still pull it from the left and right sides low where it pulled it from the factory. Pull it there and filter it.

Zooracer, ITCS 17.1.4 D. 3. a. ..."No new openings created by fitting an alternate radiator may be used for the purpose of ducting air to the engine."....
ITCS 17.1.4 D. 3. e. "Air conditioning systems may be removed in whole or in part."
ITCS 17.1.4 D. ...."No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function."

If the hole beside your radiator was not there before you removed your air conditioning I think that you would have to fill that hole to block the air flow into your engine compartment, as it is now a "new" hole that did not exist before you performed an allowed modification. You are not allowed to take advantage of that new source of cold air. If that hole is there, unblocked, in non-air conditioned versions of your car, have at it.
That is how I read what the book says.

[JeffYoung]

Renault, by under the windshield I mean under the hood in the engine bay right in front of the windshield. Legal I think, if I follow Andy's advice and make it part of the filter.

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
Renault, by under the windshield I mean under the hood in the engine bay right in front of the windshield. Legal I think, if I follow Andy's advice and make it part of the filter.

Also read Dick's quote above...you should be able to make a box...

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[RSTPerformance]

to take this to the extream we might be able to get clear opinions...

Can you legaly build an air box that collected all of the air entering the front of the engine compartment???

A) Your not leaving the engine compartment not even for the fastners to attach such a "box".
B) we don't care about the fact that we need to duct the radiator also or we will overheat (ignore the fact that the grill area is mainly used for the radiator).
C) Their is space (behind the grill area and infront of the radiator) to fit such a box, and you will make the box funnel into an air filter contected to the original air metering/measuring device.

Now I know a lot of cars might not fit such a thing... but would it be legal if your car could???

I think that we/you will find that some tech stewards feel that this is Ram Air and or goes beyond some part of the intent of the rules... we have debated this for a few years now and the only answer we get is it is up to interpretation.

The best thing to do is submit your desing to Topeka, however you will need to do that every year if you want to be sure that it is legal.

Raymond "Just cause one person says it is legal doesn't mean another one will" Blethen

[dickita15]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

I think that we/you will find that some tech stewards feel that this is Ram Air and or goes beyond some part of the intent of the rules...

again raymond ram air has a speciic definition. if it is not outside the bodywork it is not "ram air" even if rams air.
dick

[Knestis]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
... The best thing to do is submit your desing to Topeka, however you will need to do that every year if you want to be sure that it is legal. ...

While it would be nice if this were the case, there's no provision in the rules for anyone in Topeka to establish a legal precedent. The best you could hope for from there is an opinion that might sway someone's opinion but, push come to shove, you are still at the mercy of the protest process.

A slightly more effective approach would be to have it protested, be found out of compliance, appeal it, and then have it found to be legal. Even THAT doesn't actually set a true precedent but it's a close as you're going to get.

K

[charrbq]

I've seen more than one case of someone calling/writing Topeka for a ruling on an item and try to use that ruling in a protest only to find out that it wouldn't hold water.
I forgot how cautious I've got to be in choosing my words on this site. I flagrantly used the word "ducting" without taking in consideration the consequences of my words.
As an example of what I meant. I've seen a duct built that attached to the inside of a car's grill and had an hose running from it to the front of the air filter element. It was not attached to the filter or the carb...simply blew cooler air onto the element. It was protested in impound and allowed as there was no ram air effect, not enclosing the carb, and no new or additional holes were made in the body work for its application.
However, everyone is aware that different tech inspectors and stewards view things differently.

------------------
Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic

[bldn10]

My understanding of the rule justification for air boxes has been the same as Dick's - that you can do just about anything forward of the metering device as long as you collect air from the engine compartment or stock location. Most of the ones I have seen over the years have NOT been connected to or made part of the filter or tube.

Raymond, as to where the air can be taken, I think the intention of "engine compartment" (poorly defined in the Glossary - no surprise there) is behind the radiator. So your theoretical box would not be legal unless the car in stock trim took air from forward of the radiator. I have seen some 240Zs w/ air tubes extending through the radiator bulkhead and the filter right in the air flow. I guess there is some stock precedent for this.

Interestingly, although I don't do it, I think an argument could be made that air can be taken forward of the radiator in 2nd Gen. RX-7s. The stock air box is fed by a flat duct that extends along the top of the radiator, turns 90 degrees toward the front, and has what looks like a little "ram air" scoop!

As for establishing precedent, Knestis is right - there is no judicial precedent in SCCA. Every advisory ruling, protest outcome, and even COA opinion is authoritative only in the case at hand. I think that COA opinions should absolutely be binding precedent, should be catalogued, indexed, and searcheable. If you agree, write your Director.

------------------
Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[ITANorm]

My old ITC Honda presented the same dilemma. A/C cars had the condenser beside the radiator; non-A/C cars had a bolted-in block-off plate. I just took the plate off one of my non A/C parts cars and put it on the race car. The sourcing of the air was not a problem, because it originally came from the left-side headlight surround. I just "upgraded" the original, and left it at that. Besides - how much air does it take to run 65 WHP?? http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif

[RSTPerformance]

You guys are wrong... Theirs a way to get a ruling from Topeka, It costs $250.00 but tonight when I get home I will check it out. It is outlined in section 13.9 of your GCR.

BTW: This ruling from Topeka in a 13.9 is confidential for the competitor only and can be presented at any time especially when he/she gets protested. This is the only documentation that holds precedence in a protest. (He or she may share the info at his/her discretion; SCCA will not share it in Fast Track or anywhere else). One thing to note though is that it is only good until December 31 of that year as when the new GCR comes out it may or may not have changes that supersede any prior rulings.

The other way you guys mentioned is to get protested and find out the results. Unlike in our US legal system, prior rulings on a protest done in Topeka or locally does not have any precedence.

Raymond

[JeffYoung]

Bill, not picking a fight here, just curious -- where do you see an intent that "engine compartment" be defined as behind the radiator?

I think (for what that is worth) that the rule allows you two choices:

1. pick up air from the stock location OR

2. anywhere in teh engine bay, which is bounded by the hood, the firewall, the inner
fenders and the radiator.

That make sense?

[Knestis]

Based on past conversations, I expect that you'll get little disagreement on the hood (easy if there are no holes in it), firewall (very easy since they tend to be sealed up), and maybe the inner fenders.

However, the line at which the engine compartment ends and the outside world begins is harder to define out the front, and out the bottom of the car. Interpretations will vary a BUNCH.

For example, how far down may I go with my snorkle/intake thingie? Into the airflow under the car?

K

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by charrbq:
As an example of what I meant. I've seen a duct built that attached to the inside of a car's grill and had an hose running from it to the front of the air filter element. It was not attached to the filter or the carb...simply blew cooler air onto the element. It was protested in impound and allowed as there was no ram air effect, not enclosing the carb, and no new or additional holes were made in the body work for its application.
However, everyone is aware that different tech inspectors and stewards view things differently.



I would call this illegal for sure. Air to the intake must be sourced from inside the engine bay. Clearly not the case the way you describe.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[JeffYoung]

Kirk, I agree. The definition of "engine compartment" gets real fuzzy out the bottom (who would want to pick up air down there though, with all that crap?) and near the front. So, I'm going to a safe spot that is (and most people don't realize this) THE best place to get air.

Ram air is way overrated and the studies I read showed it doesn't really work below 130-150 mph or so. But, picking up cool air at the low pressure zone in front of the windshield a la a Winston Cup car is the way to go for us IT guys.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Air to the intake must be sourced from inside the engine bay. Clearly not the case the way you describe.
AB



this brings up the problem. if the duct is attached to the grill you can say the air is being sourced outside the engine compartment. but if it is back 2 inches from the grill it is ok. how about 1 inch. 1/8 inch.
because of this i am thinking that if the duct is inside the engine compartment it is legal.
dick

[Knestis]

Actually, Jeff that should be a *high* pressure area in front of the windscreen. How would the air get into the engine compartment, though? Most "cowl induction" systems that I've seen have either a rearward-facing hood scoop, cowl louvers (like I have for AC/heater air intake), or a hood that's propped up somehow. My hood is actually sealed with a gasket at the back - what's the TR like?

K

[zooracer]

I really appreciate the input. I have really tried to keep my car legal from the first time I started to build it into an IT car, as I knew one day I would start winning and would be protested. I had heard of a guy named Kaz Busch who raced a swift in the NE, winning often, and getting protested so much he quit racing.
The opening beside my radiator, which is a stock radiator, was where the A/C condensor sat at one time.
I plan to put a sheet metal plate, about the size of my old A/C condensor to fill the hole, but will leave a small peice missing next to the intake filter. I will then put another sheet metal peice between the air filter and the headers, to keep the heat away from the air intake.
After this, building an air dam, maybe out of fiberglass, not sure yet, will complete my aerodynamic work.
Maybe result in another second or two.

[JeffYoung]

Zoo, with a "low" hp car (relatively speaking), do some testing with teh air dam. You might actually lose some time on the trackes with longer straights. A buddy who raced a Spitfire in G Prod or U Prod or someting was faster without his air dam.

Kirk, the car draws air into the vents via some grating in the rear of the hood (high pressure, high pressure, that's right...). I was going to put the box directly under that, riveted to the firewall. Grates are decent size -- about 30" or so across, maybe 5-6" deep.

Sounds like on Pablo there's no real way to do it?

[Knestis]

No way at all, on the Golf.

Zooracer - you are describing a couple of things that would leave room for another ITB racer in the SE (hmmm?) to protest your modifications.

Unless you can show which rule lets you put a sheet over that grill opening, that's paper-bait. You are going to want to make sure that your heatshield is attached to the exhaust system, too.

But then, IANATI.

K

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Unless you can show which rule lets you put a sheet over that grill opening, that's paper-bait.

Unless, like I said, you can find a non-A/C car and get the stock block-off plate from it.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Knestis:
You are going to want to make sure that your heatshield is attached to the exhaust system, too.

But then, IANATI.

K


How about this from the ITCS ?

"Any exhaust header and exhaust system may be used. Exhaust shall exit behind the driver, and shall be directed asay from the car body. Original exhaust system heat shields may be removed. A suitale muffler may be necessary to meet sound control requirements (see GCR Section 12)." para g on page 6

Heat shields, We don't need no stinking heat shields!




[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited June 22, 2005).]

[gran racing]

Jeff brought up something you should really consider when doing things that may be pushing the rules. What performance gain if any is there to be had? A while ago I had some similar questions and was a bit surprised with the answers that I received. There are also several well known magazines and tuner books (hey, I do have a Honda) that have done research on the cold air intake. I have not seen anything that indicates, or better yet actual proof, that there is a benefit to doing this with our cars. So why do this then? I'm not saying don't do anything such as a air box that is attached to the filter if that gives you a mental edge but I really wouldn't push it especially if you will be running up front. Just be sure to weigh the possible benefit versus all of the b.s. you might have to go through. As a minimum when people look in your hood at your creative rules interpretiation and wonder what else have you done? How much would it suck to win your first race and get protested with something in such of a grey area as this?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[bldn10]

"2. anywhere in teh engine bay, which is bounded by the hood, the firewall, the inner
fenders and the radiator."

Jeff, are you disagreeing w/ me or just looking for rules authority? Because your definition appears to be the same as mine - the "engine bay" does not include the area between the radiator and the grill. Actually, it's just common sense - if anyone thinks otherwise, please tell me what part of the engine is in that area? If the engine bay includes the area forward of the radiator, what then would NOT be a legal source for air other than outside the car?

Andy, you are overlooking the "stock location" part of the rule. If the car in stock trim sourced air from in front of the radiator or outside, it can do so in race trim. Now, fabricating a custom box for it is another matter. But, back to my RX-7 example, I think you probably could run a duct from in front of the radiator to your air box since the stock air box did the same.

Raymond, where are you getting all that info re advisory rulings? No one said you could not get one, just that it wasn't worth much. An SSC driver got one at The Runoffs re stainless brake lines but I heard that other competitors were told that it would not necessarilly protect THEM if they used them.



------------------
Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[JeffYoung]

Bill, I think we got our wires crossed, sorry. I was saying I intend to pick up air in the engine bay on teh firewall right below some existing openings in the hood.

I agree with you on your definition of engine bay.

Kirk, let Pablo breathe, let him breathe!

Here's another question for the team -- since hood fasteners are free, what if I put big old rubber washers on my hood pins (which are located at the back of the hood) so that it sticks up an 1" and more air can get to the box??? Sounds technically legal, but a "spirit" violation.

Zoo, agree withteh others on the blanking plate....be careful with that.

[its66]

Bill,
Email me re: RX7 airbox's

Jim
jcohen at wdi dot com

[Andy Bettencourt]

Bill,

Not overlooking it, just not mentioning it as other posters have and it is only applicable to a very few cars.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[RSTPerformance]

"Raymond, where are you getting all that info re advisory rulings? No one said you could not get one, just that it wasn't worth much. An SSC driver got one at The Runoffs re stainless brake lines but I heard that other competitors were told that it would not necessarilly protect THEM if they used them."

As someone on the SOM at times it is worth a win in a protest against YOU. The YOU part is correct as it is a ruling for you and only you, however I am sure that if you were to share the approval with your friends that it would hold up for them as well. I would anyway. IE: If that SSC driver copied the letter saying that stainless steel lines were ok on his car and gave it to a friend who was protested for it, then I would say it was ok on his car also (same make/model/year). I would have a hard time arguing that what was good for one was good for the other, and I think that Topeka would have a hard time arguing that also if it went to appeal.

Raymond

[jhooten]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
Bill, I think we got our wires crossed, sorry. I was saying I intend to pick up air in the engine bay on teh firewall right below some existing openings in the hood.

I agree with you on your definition of engine bay.

Kirk, let Pablo breathe, let him breathe!

Here's another question for the team -- since hood fasteners are free, what if I put big old rubber washers on my hood pins (which are located at the back of the hood) so that it sticks up an 1" and more air can get to the box??? Sounds technically legal, but a "spirit" violation.




How about this quote?

"D. Authorized Modifications
The following modifications are authorized on all Improved Touring Catagory cars. Modifications shall not be made unless authorized herein. No permitted componant/modification shall additionally perform a prohibited function."

You can modify the mounts but not take advantage of the modification to duct cold air.

[Knestis]

Originally posted by jhooten:
How about this from the ITCS? "Any exhaust header and exhaust system may be used. ...."

My point is that (a) there is no clause in the exhaust rule that specifically allows heat shields to be added, (B) therefore, doing so hinges on the very open-ended statement allowing "any...exhaust system," so © putting a heat-shieldish looking thing that is NOT part of the exhaust system, hasn't got an ITCS leg to stand on.

I think that's an example of the associative property of rules interpretation. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited June 22, 2005).]

[madrabbit15]

I use to race a rabbit GTI in ITB. I had such a box that was fitted behind the grill, IN THE ENGINE COMPARTMENT. I used a stock radiator. I ran this for two years. Our angle was the same as many of you, that it was in the engine compartment. Before I did this I talked to several techs about the definition of RAM AIR and they all said what I was doing WAS ram air even though I pointed out to those folks the GCR def. of RAM AIR. Everytime those techs got angry with me.

At the time there were other famous ITB cars that ran a very similar setup. I ran that for two years until a race at Road Atlanta where they were checking people out for this very thing after a race and they got dqed. I know how the GCR is worded, I also think that it is not worded how they intended to be worded. I took my set up off my car. My general rule of thumb now is, if you have a question in your mind that you think it is not right, then it probably isnt. I would rather not have to worry about one techs interpretation vs. another ones. And after you have seen several dqed for the same thing you think twice.

Derek Ketchie

[lateapex911]

I would disagree. I read the rulebook, and try to use it whenever possible to determine definitions that are related, and use the words and their meanings to form my plan of action.

In a case like this, I would read the rulebook and the definitions, and make my mods. And I get DQ'ed at tech, because a tech official thinks that the "intent of the rule is bla bla bla, ...even though it says bling bling bling", then we have a larger problem that will most certainly get appealed most aggressively.

It is up to the rules writers to write effective and clear rules that result in conditions that meet their intent.

It is up to me to meet the letter of the rule, regardless of the writers intent.

If they do their job well, we won't have any tech officials deciding what is, and what isn't meeting intent.

In your case, it appears you were wronged by an over agressive rules interpreter.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited June 26, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

But we don't have all the information. The BOX may have been in the engine compartment, and the filter may have been in the engine compartment, but if it was flush up against the front - AND PULLED AIR FROM OUTSIDE THE ENGINE BAY, it doesn't matter where the set-up was.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[lateapex911]

mayyyybe....maybe not! LOL...the rule is an intereting one from a definitions angle, I will say that!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

I had heard of a guy named Kaz Busch who raced a swift in the NE, winning often, and getting protested so much he quit racing.


The gentleman's name is Kaj, not Kaz, and he converted the ITB car to a G-Prod car and raced it for a couple of years. I'm not sure why he is no longer racing.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
but if it was flush up against the front - AND PULLED AIR FROM OUTSIDE THE ENGINE BAY, it doesn't matter where the set-up was.


Andy, I am not sure we have a concesus on that point yet. how many millimeters back does it need to be before you can say the air is being sourced inside the engine compartment. On the other hand one point your statement brings up is that a modification may be legal or not based on how well it is executed.
dick patullo


[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited June 27, 2005).]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...how many millimeters back does it need to be...</font>

Especially given - as far as I know - no engine air is created and/or stored inside the engine compartment, and must find its way into there from somewhere outside the compartment...

This is a good rule where the intent should be codified. - GA

[lateapex911]

It could be argued that the air is "sourced" in California....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

Speaking of quotes, how about this one:

"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari

G

[Renaultfool]

Not many cars have large enough "extra" holes in the core support to make your design practical, unless you leave something out of your core support assembly (like the air direction flaps that seal the radiator to the core support), which would disqualify your design.
Renaultfool

[zooracer]

bill, did Kaj get protested on a regular basis? While he was in IT?

Well, I've decided to just leave well enough alone on all this. I dont think it's needed for me to win anyways.

All I need is about 10 or so more HP and some hoosiers, and I'll start winning...

Cant be bothered with people protesting me, especially if the performance enhancement is so low...

[gran racing]

good idea. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by zooracer:
bill, did Kaj get protested on a regular basis? While he was in IT?

Well, I've decided to just leave well enough alone on all this. I dont think it's needed for me to win anyways.

All I need is about 10 or so more HP and some hoosiers, and I'll start winning...

Cant be bothered with people protesting me, especially if the performance enhancement is so low...


Kaj had already moved to Prod when I started racing the MARRS series. I don't know how often he was protested, but I can only remember one IT protest at Summit Point (based on parts) in the last few years.


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[bldn10]

A few weeks ago while I was in line at Tech, a last generation (I think) Prelude was getting its annual tech and had the hood up. It had an aftermarket air tube running from the top of the engine, where I assume the metering device is, to AND THROUGH the "floor" into the fender well forward of the tire, where I assume it had a filter. Is that the stock air-source location on a Prelude?

------------------
Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[madrabbit15]

Not sure which prelude you mean, but the ones I have seen do pick up their air from that exact point, through the fender in front of the wheel.

[gran racing]

I'm not so sure about that...My prelude (2nd gen) does have a tube go down in that location but at the end there is a resonator box. From what I understand I can not put the air intake there nor can I even remove the box. I would love to hear otherwise (and be legal)!!

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[zracre]

I believe you can remove the resonator box as it was part of the origional filter system (attached) but the filter needs to stay in its origional location...that is probably a cold air set up and im pretty sure they are not legal...anyone else??

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[madrabbit15]

If the original air intake was in that LOCATION then you can do whatever you want with the intake, as long is it is FROM ORIGINAL LOCATION. It does not have to incorporate the original air box.

[gran racing]

The original air intake was NOT in that location. I have not personally seen this item protested in person but have heard of it being protested and it to be deemded illegal many times. (There have been several threads about this type of mod in honda-tech.)

And to the best of my knowledge, it is not legal to take the resonator box out. I had orignally thought about cutting the end off in hopes of getting more air to the intake filter.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[madrabbit15]

Of course it is legal to cut the resonator off of the box. You dont even have to use the stock box, its ahead of the air/fuel meter and therefore what you do with it is FREE, as long as the air is coming from the stock location or from inside the engine compartment. If you were not allowed to remove the factory box and/or cut the resonator off, every single car that won the ARRC last year would have been disqualified.

[gran racing]

I probably didn't explain it right...

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[charrbq]

Well, not all that won the ARRC would've been disqualified...at least one class was almost all carberated.

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Chris Harris
ITC Honda Civic

[bldn10]

It was the last generation - the one w/ the big rectangular headlights. I found this description of a popular "cold-air" intake system and it makes some interesting inferences:

"AEM original Cold Air and most Version2 (V2) induction systems relocate the filter outside of the engine compartment for a cooler intake charge, and our Short Ram systems are an economical underhood alternative to our Cold Air systems. We have found that inlet length plays a vital role in the power production of V2 systems and not all V2 induction systems relocate the filter outside of the engine compartment. In these cases, extensive temperature testing was performed to locate the filter in the coolest area of the engine compartment to achieve the lowest inlet temperatures possible."

Now, I understand that it is not the location of the filter that is determinitive, but this suggests that the OEM air does not come from the fender well.

For the benefit of the driver since this is at least a questionable mod and he might not be up on the ITCS, it was a NASA U.S. Touring Car Series Prelude at Mid-Ohio. He ran up front.


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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[zracre]

I think the point is that the air filter needs to reside in its origional location (engine compartment) and all air filter accessories and baffles may be removed ahead of the air metering device (on a honda that is the throttle body on some cars it is the mass air sensor) even though you remove the resonators and baffle tubes running all over the front of the car doesnt mean you can relocate the filter to one of these locations. the baffles are attached to the stock airbox, therefore as i read the rules i can remove them....at least thats the way i see it...

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[gran racing]

Since we're talking about this... Is it legal to remove a portion of the resonator box; essentially cut the box in 1/2? (The one that is located in the wheel well)

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[zracre]

The way it is described to me...if it is part of the air filtration system (sound resonator box is designed into the air filter system to keep things quiet) it can go as long as it is not in between the air flow meter and the engine (hondas use air density so the throttle body is where the filter starts). I bring my stock air filter "system" with me just in case anyone has questions...fully assembled it is an interesting looking piece...

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[bldn10]

Evan, the way I interpret it is this: forward of the metering device you can do anything you want to the intake system but the source of the air has to be either in the engine compartment (which I define as aft of the radiator) or the stock location. Thus, forward of the metering device you can remove, replace, alter, or add any baffles, boxes, resonators, etc. That also means you can relocate the filter (which may or may not be at the end of the line). The only limitations are the source of the air and no "ram air." There is no express prohibition of "cold air" setups.

So, back to the car in question, the issue is whether that model Prelude in stock trim sources intake air from the fender well. If so, then I think what I saw is legal.

------------------
Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[Roy Dean]

just to set the record straight, zoo's (and my) swift gt(i) has what I believe is the worlds smallest radiator. It takes up maybe 1/3rd of the front of the engine compartment. The ac condenser goes in the other side, but again only takes about 1/3rd of the area. Non-ac equipped cars had no block off plates.

[specialtyautomo]

Acording to Suzuki's factory parts manual non a/c automatic cars had the block off plate for the a/c condensor. My car, which is an 89 came with a/c.I have been racing it since 2000. I also have Taylor Robertsons old car which is a 90 model, it has the block off plate as does two parts cars w/o a/c. Most of the plates rusted at the mounting points and were removed because of noise. I will call the dealer to see if the part number is still avail. They were only held by 3 bolts by the way.

[zracre]

Is that automatics only or does that hold true for manual tranny cars as well?

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[specialtyautomo]

It does not specify in the parts manual if it is for auto only. Of the 15 cars we have parted out, three were non a/c cars 2 autos 1 manual. the manual had evidence that one was once there, the 2 autos were still intack though very rusty. Taylors old car came with one installed when I purchased it. Most of the swift gt and gti's sold in the US were auto's. The a/c was a dealer install through adout 1992.

[Knestis]

It just seems massively unlikely that a modern car would come from the factory with the cooling compromised as much as would be the case, were there a huge hole next to the radiator. I don't believe that it's possible.

K

[Roy Dean]

I have never, ever, seen a non-ac car with a block off plate... however I do see that part in the parts book... 72531-60b00... suzukicarparts.com lists it for $32.58.

As for which were sold more in the US, they were most certainly NOT automatics. Of the 5 year (89-94) production for gt(i)'s in the US, the auto was available for only 2 years.

I have been running my 89 gti for 3 years with no overheating issues with the ac condenser removed (and no plate in it's place).... Well, i did have some nuisance overheating from a poorly plumbed heater core, but since fixing that I've been a-ok. I must stress again, this radiator is ludicrously small, and these are all aluminum engines.... overheating is not an issue.

[specialtyautomo]

hmmm. Stepped out, I still see 2 non a/c cars with auto's and the block off plates rusting away. You are correct about the years produced in auto's. I as told by an employee of Suzuki North America {who was very helpful with getting te race car off the ground untill he retired in 01} that the majority were auto's. He also stated that the 89{tub} is the lightest. That did not matter since we already had a low milage 89 to start with. Forgive me if I am wrong I was only quoting from my notes. I have no invetory numbers or sales figures to back up the number of auto's. I have never had an overheating issue with either car one with the block off plate,no oil cooler the other no plate but an oil cooler. Both cars seem to run around 175 to 190 on race days. Seems to be no water temp diff with or w/o.

[H5Civic]

Originally posted by bldn10@Jul 16 2005, 02:58 PM
So, back to the car in question, the issue is whether that model Prelude in stock trim sources intake air from the fender well. If so, then I think what I saw is legal.

This is the &#39;99 Prelude that is prepped for ITS and raced by Brian Shanfeld of Honda of America R&D. I would think that if anyone would know whether or not the stock air box pulled air from the inner fender liner these guys would.
FWIW, I&#39;ve seen an ITA CRX w/ this same setup, and would have fought me tooth and nail that the "bladder" that is in the stock air box goes thru the hole in lower fender well and therefore the stock air box pulls air from that location and it is legal. IANATI, so I&#39;m not sure how legal it is or not, just a few instances where I&#39;ve seen the same thing.

Just my $.02.

[bldn10]

Sam, I did not know whose car it was or what his background was - my query was posed mainly because it appeared that the car was a NASA Touring Car Series car getting its first SCCA tech inspection and that the owner simply might not be familiar w/ our rules. In other words, hypothetically, he might know that the stock car does not source air from there but not know that that would not be legal in SCCA. Sounds like it is indeed legal. Anyway, he was fast.