2 inch lap belts now legal ?

[Bildon]

I could swear I read that this was a "done deal" and that it would be approved for '05.

Schroth gave that special (2") sales pitch, errr, safety seminar to the SCCA which was bought hook, line and sinker I was told.

Now I can't find any reference to this new rule anywhere. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/frown.gif

Are 2" FIA lap belts legal for '05 or not?
If not I have some screaming to do at a certain Schroth distributor. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif



------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[Dave Zaslow]

Bill,

Go to the Master Tech Bulletin section in the SCCA Garage section of the Scca.com site:

6. Effective 1/1/05, approved by the BoD in December: change GCR Section 20. to read as
follows:
20. DRIVER’S RESTRAINT SYSTEM
All drivers in SCCA-sanctioned speed events shall utilize either a five, six or
seven-point restraint harness meeting the following specifications. A seven-point
restraint harness is recommended. Arm restraints are required on all open cars
including open Targa tops, sunroofs and T-tops. The restraint system installation is
subject to approval of the Chief Technical and Safety Inspector. (Note: SFI
requirements for Driver’s Restraint System does not include arm restraints at this
time. Window nets need not be dated.)
1. A five-point system, for use in automobiles where the driver is seated in an
upright position, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt, an approximately three (3)
inch strap over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and an approximately two
(2) inch anti-submarine strap. A Five-point harness is considered a minimum
restraint system. Six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars
including automobiles where the driver is seated in an upright position.
2. A six or seven-point system, recommended for use in all automobiles where the
driver is seated in a semi-reclining position, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt
or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt, approximately a three (3) inch strap
over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two (2) inch
leg or anti-submarine straps. The seven-point system also has an approximately
two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.
3. The material of all straps shall be Nylon or Dacron polyester and in new or
perfect condition. The buckles shall be of metal-to-metal quick-release type
except in the case of leg straps of the six-point or seven-point systems where
they attach to the seat belt or shoulder harness straps.
4. The shoulder harness shall be the over-the-shoulder type. There shall be a single
release common to the seat belt and shoulder harness. When mounting belts and
harnesses it is recommended that they be kept as short as reasonably possible
to minimize stretch when loaded in an accident.
The shoulder harness shall be mounted behind the driver and supported above a
line drawn downward from the shoulder point at an angle of twenty (20)
degrees with the horizontal. The seat itself, or anything added only to the seat
shall not be considered a suitable guide. Guides must be a part of the roll cage
or a part of the car structure.
Only separate shoulder straps are permitted. (“Y”-type shoulder straps are not
allowed.) “H”-type configuration is allowed.
5. The single anti-submarine strap of the five-point system shall be attached to the
floor structure and have a metal-to-metal connection with the single release
common to the seat belt and shoulder harness.
6. The double leg straps of the six-point or seven-point system may be attached to
the floor as above for the five-point system or be attached to the seat belt so
that the driver sits on them, passing them up between his or her legs and
attaching either to the single release common to the seat belt and shoulder
harness or attaching to the shoulder harness straps. It is also permissible for the
leg straps to be secured at a point common to the seat belt attachment to the
structure, passing under the driver and up between his or her legs to the seat
belt release or shoulder harness straps.
All straps shall be free to run through intermediate loops or clamps/buckles.
7. Each seat (lap) and shoulder belt of the harness (5, 6, or 7 points) shall have an
individual mounting point (i.e. 2 for seat belt and 2 for shoulder belt minimum).
Six or seven point system anti-submarine straps may share a mounting point
with one or both seat (lap) belt(s). The minimum acceptable bolts used in the
mounting of all belts and harnesses is SAE Grade 5. Where possible, seat belt,
shoulder harness, and anti-submarine strap(s) should be mounted to the roll
structure or frame of the car. Where this is not possible, large diameter
mounting washers or equivalent should be used to spread the load. Bolting
through aluminum floor panels, etc., is not acceptable.
8. All driver restraint systems shall meet one of the following: SFI specification
16.1, FIA specification 8853/1985 including amendment 1/92 or FIA
specifications 8853/98 and 8854/98.
A. Restraint systems meeting SFI 16.1 shall bear a dated 'SFI Spec 16.1' label.
The certification indicated by this label shall expire on December 31st of the
2nd year after the date of manufacture as indicated by the label.
B. Restraint systems complying with FIA specification 8853/1985 including
amendment 1/92 shall be no more than five (5) years old. (Not all
manufacturers are dating every belt in a set. They may be dating one of a
pair of shoulder or lap belts or may only be dating one belt in an entire set.
Scrutineers are reminded that restraint systems need only one date label.)
C. Restraint systems homologated to FIA specifications 8853/98 and 8854/98
will not have a date of manufacture label. Instead they will have a label
containing the Manufacturer's Name, Type of Harness Designation and Date
of Expiration which is the last day of the year marked. All straps in this FIA
restraint system will have these labels. FIA restraint systems with the
certification 'D-####.T/98' are equal to FIA specifications 8853/98 and
8854/98, and are therefore, acceptable restraint systems. FIA two-inch seat
belts with the certification 8853/98 are acceptable restraint systems when
used in conjunction with their corresponding FIA shoulder harness and antisubmarine
straps.
D. If a restraint system has more than one type of certification label, the label
with the latest expiration may be used.
9. Harness Threading: Assemble in accordance with manufacturers instructions.
10. FIA certified 2-inch shoulder harnesses are allowed when the HANS® device is
used by the driver. Should the driver, at anytime not utilize the HANS® device,
then 3-inch shoulder harnesses are required. The replacement cycle for the 2-
inch harnesses shall be per GCR Section 20.8.


Dave Z

[This message has been edited by Dave Zaslow (edited March 03, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Dave Zaslow (edited March 03, 2005).]

[jlucas]

"or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt"

Did you even read what you posted?

edit: Schroth are FIA approved
------------------
Jeremy Lucas
Team Honda Research
Kumho - Cobalt - Comptech

[This message has been edited by jlucas (edited March 02, 2005).]

[Bildon]

That's what I thought. Cool. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

So how much you wanna bet I get in a fight with the annual tech guy anyway? I just know it. I'd better print that out and paste it to the roof of my car. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

[ddewhurst]

1. A five-point system, for use in automobiles where >>>>the driver is seated in an
upright position,<<<< consists of a three (3) inch seat belt, an approximately three (3)
inch strap over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and an approximately two
(2) inch anti-submarine strap.

2. A six or seven-point system, recommended for use in all automobiles where >>>>the
driver is seated in a semi-reclining position,<<<< consists of a three (3) inch seat belt
or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt, approximately a three (3) inch strap
over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two (2) inch
leg or anti-submarine straps.

Bill, is your driver position upright or semi-reclining ? The two inch FIA seatbelt is ONLY for the semi-reclining position.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Bryan Watts]

David - "Recommended". Otherwise, you wouldn't be allowed to use 6-point belts in an upright seating position, which we know is false.

[ddewhurst]

1. A five-point system, for use in automobiles where the driver is seated in an
upright position, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt, an approximately three (3)
inch strap over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and an approximately two
(2) inch anti-submarine strap. A Five-point harness is considered a minimum
restraint system. >>>>Six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars
including automobiles where the driver is seated in an upright position.<<<<

Bryan, from above >>>>Six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars
including automobiles where the driver is seated in an upright position.<<<<.

As I read the rule an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt can be used ONLY when the driver is in a semi-reclining position. I don't know if Bill is talking about the driver in upright position or a semi-reclined position.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Bryan Watts]

To me, THIS passage defines what a 6 or 7 point belt system is and recommends that it be used in all situations where the driver is semi-reclined or reclined:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">2. A six or seven-point system, recommended for use in all automobiles where the driver is seated in a semi-reclining position, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt, approximately a three (3) inch strap over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two (2) inch leg or anti-submarine straps.</font>

And THIS passage recommends the use of a 6 or 7 point belt system in ALL cars:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Six or seven-point systems are highly recommended in all cars including automobiles where the driver is seated in an upright position.</font>

So, a 6-point system can be defined as a system with FIA 2-inch lap belts, and such a system is recommended for use in all cars, BUT a 5-point system is acceptable in an upright driving situation even if a 6-point is recommended.

You are misreading the rule. The rules says that you CAN use a 6-point system in an upright position and goes on to define such a system in #2. The rules says that you CAN use a 5-point system in an upright position, but recommends a 6-point. What the rules DOES say is that you cannot have a 5-point system with 2-inch FIA lapbelts.

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited March 03, 2005).]

[Bildon]

>> Bill, is your driver position upright or semi-reclining ?

Well I'm tall and my seat is therefore tilted back at a pretty decent angle to get my "knees "up" giving me more leg room and to get my shoulders back against the main hoop cross bar. So yes it's semi-reclining but isn't this just like our rules to be vague?

They shoud define "semi" as a minimum angle from horizontal for the seat or from vertical for the seat back.... grrrrr

So now I'm definately getting in a fight with the tech inspectors. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/rolleyes.gif Time to call Topeka...


------------------
Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport (http://www.bildon.com)
Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[ShelbyRacer]

--rant mode on--
Oh for chrissake guys. The seating position has NOTHING to do with a two inch lap belt being legal.

2. A six or seven-point system, recommended for use in all automobiles where the driver is seated in a semi-reclining position, consists of a three (3) inch seat belt or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt, approximately a three (3) inch strap
over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness, and two approximately two (2) inch leg or anti-submarine straps. The seven-point system also has an approximately two (2) inch anti-submarine strap.

The phrase "recommended for use in all automobiles where the driver is seated in a semi-reclining position" is NOT part of the definition.

I understand the difficulties in crafting rules, but sheesh, how about looking at this from a wholistic view? I have a couple guys in my club who feel the need to interpret every rule every which way. There is NO EARTHLY REASON to discriminate by seating position in this case.

--rant mode off--

OK, now that I got that out... I think clarification is in order, because obviously there are some who will interpret this rule in very different ways. I'm sure whatever Tech guy you get will be the opposite of what you thought too...



------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[ddewhurst]

Bryan & Matt, I could realy care less what the two of you use for your restraints. I use Simpson 3 inch Cam-lock seat belt/over the shoulder. Please look at the following words & tell me what width strap you would use when the word "approximately" is used.

***an approximately three (3)
inch strap over-the-shoulder type of shoulder harness,***

If the tech inspector thinks "approximately three (3) inch" has a width tolerance of plus or minus 1/4 inch & you show up with a two & one half (2 1/2) inch strap over the shoulder because your thought is that that the width tolerance is plus or minus one half (1/2) inch. Who do you think wins that battle. It don't say SHALL & there is no width tolerance.

Be Safe http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

[Matt Rowe]

Well, according the January Fastrack as of 01/01/06 the universally applied tolerance system for all unspecified tolerance will be

For these specifications, the tolerance shall
be equivalent to ½ of the final digit of the
specification (e.g. .01" tolerance equals +/-
.005").

That would mean that a 3" specfication would have a tolerance of + or - .5". Of course I don't think for a minute that argument is going to hold up. Technically legal or not, compromising safety over a trivial rules interpretation is just ridiculous.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[ddewhurst]

***That would mean that a 3" specfication would have a tolerance of + or - .5".***

***For these specifications, the tolerance shall be equivalent to ½ of the final digit of the specification (e.g. .01" tolerance equals +/- .005").***

Matt, help me out with your math. How did you use the 2006 rule stated above & arrive at your answer of +/- .5 inch for a 3 inch belt. Talk about ridiculous.

The final digit of the specification is 3" & 1/2 of 3" is 1 1/2". +/- 1 1/2" would be the tolerance of the 3" belt specification.

Ya dam right it's ridiculous but you are the guy who posted the tolerance rule.

Have Fun http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/wink.gif
David

ps: Back to my original question, how wide is an
"approximately three (3) inch" wide belt. With your stated rule above the belt width could be anywhere from 1 1/2" wide to 4 1/2' wide.

[Bildon]

OK stop the personal off topic bickering... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

So what is the final verdict? Are 2" lap belts on brand new Schroth Profi FIA certified belts most likely legal in a touring car or not?

- Bill

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:

Matt, help me out with your math. How did you use the 2006 rule stated above & arrive at your answer of +/- .5 inch for a 3 inch belt. Talk about ridiculous.

The final digit of the specification is 3" & 1/2 of 3" is 1 1/2". +/- 1 1/2" would be the tolerance of the 3" belt specification.

[/B]

My read on that rule (based on drafting standards) is they are referring to the position of the final digit not it's value. Therefore a 3", 5" or 1" number are all given a tolerance based on being a multiple of a whole inch. Take that number a divide by half and you get a half inch. Again, the rule is not clear but that is the accepted procedure when dealign with drafting standards for every print I have had to work from.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:

Ya dam right it's ridiculous but you are the guy who posted the tolerance rule.

[/B]

I posted it, but I didn't write so don't blame me. You claimed there was no rule regarding the tolerance, I just wanted to clarify that as of 2006 there is a rule. Even with the short certification life of a belt the rule will still apply to belts purchased today. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif


Oh, and Bill, given that some national has published recommendations that a 6 or 7 point be used in all cars. It would be safe to say a 6 pt FIA belt with a 2" lap belt would be acceptable, if not preferred.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[ddewhurst]

***For these specifications, the tolerance shall be equivalent to ½ of the final digit of the specification (e.g. .01" tolerance equals +/-
.005").***

Final digit of specification: .01 x .5 = .005

Final digit of specification: 3 x .5 = 1.5

Final digit of specification: 3.0 x .5 = 1.5

The stated rule above specifices nothing about any drafting rule. & I will not comment about your drafting rule. The above rule you specified has NOTHING to do with drivers restraint system tolerances..... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/biggrin.gif

http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif
David

ps: The rule including the 2005 GCR specification recomended 3 inch seat belt & shoulder strap. The 2006 GCR Fastrack rule recomends 3 inch seat belt or a FIA 2 inch seat belt for semi-reclining. Ya can't be wrong with 3 inch belt & 3 inch shoulder strap.

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
The above rule you specified has NOTHING to do with drivers restraint system tolerances.....

The new rule would be the tolerance specification for any item with an unspecified tolerance. Nowhere does the GCR reference a tolerance for belt dimensions. Therefore the new rules applies to belt dimensions. I'm sure it's not what was intended but you know what intent is.

As for the tolerancing issue, it's obvious you don't understand the point, so I'll let it drop.

------------------
~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by Bildon:
So what is the final verdict? Are 2" lap belts on brand new Schroth Profi FIA certified belts most likely legal in a touring car or not?

Yes, in my opinion, absolutely.

[Knestis]

Totally legal, even without resorting to tolerance math. http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

K

[ShelbyRacer]

I think all of our tolerance is being examined here... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[grjones1]

Originally posted by ShelbyRacer:
I think all of our tolerance is being examined here... http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif


Ain't nuthin' tolerant about Improved Touring.

Sorry, couldn't resist the alliteration.

GRJ http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif(:



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited March 04, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Bryan & Matt, I could realy care less what the two of you use for your restraints. I use Simpson 3 inch Cam-lock seat belt/over the shoulder. Please look at the following words & tell me what width strap you would use when the word "approximately" is used.


http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif David http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif http://ITForum.ImprovedTouring.com/smile.gif

See, you assume too much here. I didn't mention what I use at all. I simply answered the question of the original poster.

It is legal- read the rule- PERIOD.

The rule says-
2. A six or seven-point system consists of a three (3) inch seat belt or an FIA approved two (2) inch seat belt, etc.

The part in the middle to which you refer about seating position is only to recommend that you use the style of system for that position.

And I'll trump your "I don't care" etc BS with a NO ONE CARES what you use for a harness. No one cares what I use for a harness. Difference is, I never told you what I use, because IT'S IRRELEVANT.

Oh, and on the topic of tolerances, I hope you have personal tolerances that are as miscalculated as your mathematical ones. You certainly have provided quite a few people that I know with some humor. Man, I wish you could see the smile on my face right now. Just goes to prove that everyone is good for something, even if it's just to show cautionary example...


------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."