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Jake
12-02-2004, 04:47 PM
Honest question - the new wording from the January Fasttrack is:

"cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit up to a fifteen (15) inch wheel."

So say my car came originally equipped with (14) inch wheels, if I use a 13" wheel, does that qualify as "up to a fifteen (15) inch wheel" ?

On the one hand, they did not specify that the "up to" subset has to be larger than stock. On the other hand, if it is legal, there is no wording to allow cars originally equipped with 15"s to use 14's or 13's.

Jake "can't afford new final drive and would love to use those short 13"'s like the RX7 guys" Fisher

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 04:52 PM
The way I read it, any ITS or ITA car can now use any size wheel up to 15", and no more than 7" in width.

A good change.

Jake
12-02-2004, 05:03 PM
Here's the full text. The uppercase "UP TO" was added in the Jan Fasttrack.

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 05:33 PM
Okay, this is like reading a statute.

So, literally, I think if you have 13" or 14" wheels stock, you can run ANY size wheel UP To 15", meaning you can go to 13"

But what about guys with 15"? They can't go down....nor can guys with 16". Only 13" and 14" wheel guys have a choice.

Interesting...not sure if that was the intent, but maybe it was.

Greg Amy
12-02-2004, 05:46 PM
Hey, if spherical bearings, MoTec, and hogging out the ports within one inch is legal, I see no problems with going DOWN in wheel size from stock.

Welcome to the "Laws of Unintended Consequences", boys and girls. (http://tinyurl.com/5awbs)

- GA

Andy Bettencourt
12-02-2004, 06:00 PM
The intent of the rule was to allow a move UP, not down. 13's can run 14 or 15. 14's car run 15. 15's are stuck at 15.

It doesn't say you can run ANY size up to 15". It says "The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.".

Maybe clearer wording is needed but it WAS NOT the intent to allow a downward move.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Knestis
12-02-2004, 06:33 PM
I think we under-utilize an important resource around here, remembering that Jeff's a lawyer... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

K

Quickshoe
12-02-2004, 07:39 PM
Clearly if the intent was to allow only those vehicles with stock wheels 15" or smaller in diameter to increase their wheel size to a maximum of 15" diameter, a clarification is in order.

Maybe the ITAC can toss the purposed clarified wording out here for some of the wordsmiths to shoot holes in?

I thought this was discussed some time back when one of the ITAC members (Darin???) was convinced that the wording and intent weren't aligned and that a clarification was in order, perhaps one is already on its' way??

gran racing
12-02-2004, 07:45 PM
That's really stretching it. 14" rim / up to 15" rim means down to 13" rim?

If you do get some 13" rims, could you only buy 6" wide ones? I won't be able to use 7" wide ones now that I'm in B.

Jake - what happened to hoosier 13" and 14" tires having the same diameter due to tire size selections avail.?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

Quickshoe
12-02-2004, 08:00 PM
Dave,

If you don't read "up to" as meaning "increase size to"

then it is clearer that "up to" could very well mean "size not to exceed".

That is why it is difficult to write these rules, when you know what you meant the rule is perfectly clear, until someone reads it that isn't certain what you meant and can interpret it to mean something different.

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 08:13 PM
No offense to the ITAC, as I have seen statutes and regs FAR FAR more densely and drafted, that missed their intended target by quite a bit.

Here, the key language is: "The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels."

I think there is a good (better than the opposing one) argument that the words "may fit UP TO" 15" wheels means that you can use any wheel size UP TO 15".

I know that is not the intent, but I'd take that argument over the other in front of Ole Judge Cashwell anyday.

Kirk, where do I send the bill?

Knestis
12-02-2004, 08:34 PM
Someplace in Kansas, Dorothy...

Was I the only one here during all of the conversations before the rule got changed? Does ANYONE remember ANYONE making the case that cars should be allowed to use smaller diameter wheels than defined on their spec line?

The entire deal was presented in terms of wheel and tire availability, particularly a shortage of 14x7 wheels. I seem to recall people predicting that appropriate tires just wouldn't be available for 13" wheels in the near future. Gloom. Doom. Mayhem!

K

Edit - the wording does leave the loophole described in the first post.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited December 02, 2004).]

lateapex911
12-02-2004, 08:34 PM
Hee hee~ Can't wait 'till Geo gets a read of this!


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.</font>

Looks like anything that came stock with rims less than, but not equal to 15" can fit UP TO a 15 " rim, right?

So that means my 13" stock rim could use a 14" right? Or a 15"...same for a 12" stock size..he could choose a 13", 14" OR a 15", right? If we agree that this is the case, logic tells me a car that is not delivered with 15" rims has free choice. Therefor, a 14" stock rim can use a 15", stay stock with a 14"....or fit a 13".

The line should read, "bla bla bla,.... cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase (only) rim diameter UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels."

But it doesn't say that...so I think you're good to go.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited December 02, 2004).]

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 08:43 PM
Imagine that, competitive people trying to juice a rule for all advantages they can. Smaller wheels = cheap gearing.

Kirk, I don't remember anyone asking about going smaller. You are right. BUT, the words used say "UP TO" and don't exclude the use of wheels less than 15."

But let's look at this:

1. 15" wheel guys can't move down.

2. 13" wheel guys can effectively ONLY move up. They just get a choice.

4. 14" guys are the only ones who can go down.

So, the unintended consequence (great link Greg) here is not significant. And could easily be corrected with the following change:

The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase their wheel size UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels.

Edit -- Jake, you beat me to it.

[This message has been edited by JeffYoung (edited December 02, 2004).]

lateapex911
12-02-2004, 08:45 PM
On the other hand, do I care that Jake is saving money with cheap rims instead of $$$ final drives? Probably not.

Do I care that someone else, who has no access to a lower final drive (it's not made, for example) for their model can fit smaller rims to acheive a lower final drive? I do IF the ITAC and the CRB knew the limitations of that car ,and adjusted it's weight accordingly when it was classed originally.

Frankly, my confidence of the weight being set to accomodate cars with no final drive options avaialble is pretty low.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

tderonne
12-02-2004, 08:59 PM
So how do I increase my 13" wheels to 14 or 15? Miracle grow?

lateapex911
12-02-2004, 09:06 PM
I bet Mark Martin (Nextel #6) might have a suggestion............

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Andy Bettencourt
12-02-2004, 09:14 PM
Just to clarify the Intent, then an explanation:

12 can go to 13, 14, or 15.
13 can go to 14 or 15
14 can go to 15
15 can do nothing
NOBODY can GO DOWN in diameter. NOBODY.

Our original wording was botched in translation from our con-call to the minutes. We re-clarified.

Shoot this full of holes:

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase the diameter of their GCR-specified wheel UP TO fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

************
Any good?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Geo
12-02-2004, 09:21 PM
For those of you thinking you can move down in size, please quote the wording that says "down to."


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Jake
12-02-2004, 09:28 PM
For the record, in past threads I argued quite a lot to open up wheel diamter because the only advantage to going to 13's is the same advantage as changing final drive - which is legal. And yes, the only hope with my MR2 is to have custom gears made at a cost greater than the value of my car.

I understand the intent because I am on this board, but if I wasn't and just purchased a GCR with that wording, I'd be picking up one of those sets of 13x7 panasports on eBay right now!

Greg Amy
12-02-2004, 10:11 PM
You guys can play word games all you want, but I guarandamntee you that 6, 12, 18, 24+ months from now the "intent" of the rules will be long forgotten. Don't believe me? Hey, Andy, show me proof of the original intent of the "alternate bushing materials" on the suspension. Darin, you take up the original intent of the port matching. George, you get the ECU rules.

Now, each of you present to the group, in a hundred words or less, how you're going to stop someone from installing spherical suspension bushings, a MoTec ECU, and/or hogging out their exhaust ports to match their custom-built header.

George, come on: when you use vernacular terms for rules and regulations, you get vernacular translations. "Up to" and "down to" refers to position and location, not size. Traditionally speaking, it can be - and will be - translated to either mean an increase in size *OR* simply 'a maximum value'. And, just as in the examples I gave above, both are correct. Are you going to attend all Regional events infinitum to make sure all local tech guys "interpret" the wording the way y'all meant it? If so, can we also recruit the guys that wrote the ECU, bushings, and port-matching rules to travel along with you? Now you know how *those* guys feel/felt.

Let's face it: it got blown. Either deal with it, or request a rule change pronto (yep, much further past this point and it's a rule "change".) No matter how carefully you write it, no matter how carefully you think you've got it covered, someone's gonna come around and flip the world upside down.

I'm pretty impressed, actually. Ingenuity and innovation at its best. Makes me smile.

Frankly, though, I'm just seriously pissed that my brakes are too large to run a 12" wheel, 'cause I'd be ordering them first thing tomorrow...

GregA

Andy Bettencourt
12-02-2004, 10:23 PM
Greg,

The way I read it, it got blown, and I am TELLING you what the original intent is...that is why I posted my correction/idea. Any constructive thoughts on that?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited December 02, 2004).]

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 10:25 PM
Andy, that's the fix (use of the word increase). Makes it clear what you can do.

George, I would argue, strongly and correctly I think, that "up to" means you can fit anything up to 15".

Matlock impersonation on. My mother used to say, "Son, you can ride your bike up to Wise Dr. That's the limit, the Rubicon, the Great Divide. Do not go past it."

What she meant by "up to," your honor, was that I could go anywhere within the limit I wanted, just not past it. That was what up to meant to my mother (the ultimate Rule Arbiter), and I submit, your honor, that that's precisely what it means here. The rule says I can go UP TO 15". It sets a maximum under which I can operately freely, so if your honor would like to sell my those 13X7 Panasports on yonder MGB, I'd be mighty obliged."

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 10:29 PM
Sorry to overpost, sitting here at work and bored.

Andy, I think your language works perfectly because it makes it clear that you can only changes sizes in one direction -- up. This qualifies movement in the range allowed by the maximum set by the up to clause. It states that movement can only be upward.

No holes in that one.

Geo
12-02-2004, 10:33 PM
Well, I still don't see where it says you can go down in size. But, since you lawyer types (real and play one on the Internet) want to make arguments that you can, you're right, we should probably get that changed.

I wouldn't invest in smaller wheels. You'll be disappointed when you find out they are worthless to you.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
12-02-2004, 10:48 PM
Andy, good constructive criticism has been offered; I'm just causin' trouble. 'Cause I can. And 'cause it's fun.

George, the reason you don't understand the flack is because you're from Texas. I *know* how yer readin' it; ah used to speak Texan too, 'member? Yer readin' as "you boys kin change yer wheels *UP* and I'm lettin' yew boys do it ter 14 or 15 inches". T'other boys, tho, are readin' it as any size "UP TO" 15 inches. And in case ya'll be changin' this here rule pert near soon, you best git on wid it 'fore someone goes and gets a Steward to approve it at the first race of ought-5, and then it goes through a court of them thar appeals and becomes what we Yankees up here call common law.

How about a larger picture? How come we're gettin' our jammies wadded up because someone may want to go down in wheel size? Why do we give a rat's patootie if they go smaller instead of bigger? So it ain't whatcha intended, so what? What's the advantage? (Edit for clarification to Texans http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif - what's the performance advantage that cannot be legally obtained another way?)

BTW, ITAC boys, I hope you're not taking this criticism - from me or anyone else - personally. It's not aimed at you, it's aimed at the words. There's a quote I have engraved on a plaque above my desk that has served me well for many years, and most definitely applies here:

"Avoid having your ego so close to your position that when your position falls, your ego goes with it." - Colin Powell


[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited December 02, 2004).]

JeffYoung
12-02-2004, 10:49 PM
I've got 13" wheels on an ITS car. No dog in this fight.

But I do see an advantage to moving down. It is cheap gearing, at the same tire width. It only works for 14" tired cars, but it would not be worthless to them.

All pointless, Andy's going to change this and the rule will say what was intended without any chance for ambiguity. That I like.

Greg Amy
12-02-2004, 10:57 PM
Here's your rule. Replace the whole goldarn section with:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13), fourteen (14), or fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or metric 365 wheels wheels may fit fourteen (14) or fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. Cars originally equipped with fourteen (14) inch or metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type.

Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

If you felt motivated, you could also get them to put in a little table to make it more clear.


Although, I still wonder why it's such a big deal...

Knestis
12-02-2004, 11:10 PM
...because if the functional application of the rule is to allow SOME-one to choose from among plus and minus size wheels - those of us with 14s - then EVERY-one should be accorded the same opportunity.

Would I run 13s if the rule didn't get changed? Honestly don't know. I hear that there aren't going to be ANY tires available in that diameter. Like, next week. Seriously. I heard it on Wind Tunnel or someplace...

K

Andy Bettencourt
12-02-2004, 11:16 PM
Greg,

Thanks for the suggestion. We will get it fixed somehow. Understand this: I certainly haven't taken it personally. I saw the issue raised, recognized the problem, made a suggestion and an appeal to help, and will work to fix it. Nothing more, nothing less! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Oh ya, for you...look at the 1st and 5th picture down...two ITA cars...fun, fun fun... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/results.php

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited December 02, 2004).]

Knestis
12-02-2004, 11:25 PM
...and finally, an ode to a French idea that just didn't catch on:


Choosing tires for his Mustang, O'Steen
had a choice of fourteen or fifteen.
But that just wouldn't jive,
because "365"
was some wacky-ass size in between!


[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited December 02, 2004).]

Quickshoe
12-02-2004, 11:27 PM
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Shoot this full of holes:

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may increase the diameter of their GCR-specified wheel UP TO fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

************


Andy,

read it c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, you are suggesting that we can increase our wheelsize up to 15". So, I could go from a 12" to a 27"? Bling! Bling! Get sponsored by DUB http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Maybe "increase wheel size up to a wheel no larger than 15" in diameter."????

On edit--I better make sure that I spell check any 'sponser' proposals...and use a calculator as well.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 03, 2004).]

Quickshoe
12-02-2004, 11:48 PM
How come people with 365 or 395's get to go down in size? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 02, 2004).]

Geo
12-03-2004, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by JeffYoung:
All pointless, Andy's going to change this and the rule will say what was intended without any chance for ambiguity. That I like.

It's all Andy's fault!

Andy! Change that damned rule already!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
12-03-2004, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
...and finally, an ode to a French idea that just didn't catch on:


Choosing tires for his Mustang, O'Steen
had a choice of fourteen or fifteen.
But that just wouldn't jive,
because "365"
was some wacky-ass size in between!


Hey now...

Don't make me haiku you. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Too late.....

All these wheel choices
What is a racer to do
Head spinning like car

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Andy Bettencourt
12-03-2004, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
So, I could go from a 12" to a 27"? Bling! Bling! Get sponsored by DUB http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



DANG! Good catch. What if we specifically disallow spinners?

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Greg Amy
12-03-2004, 09:48 AM
Touche, Monsieur Kirk. I capitulate.

(Although, I must say, I just don't see why we're being so anal about this. Set a max wheel diameter and be done with it. The "original intent" of the wheel rules prior to 2005 was to maintain original wheel diameters, with rare allowance for rare wheels such as 12" and metric; we've crossed that bridge now so let's call a spade a spade and open it up. If a 75hp ITC Honda wants to run huge 17" wheels, knock yourself out.)

Andy, back to the B13, eh? You know where to find us as you begin beating your heads against the wall <grin>. I think these will be one of the cars for ITA, but you just can't open up your Internet browser and buy and the parts to bolt on. Like with all Nissans, be prepared to fabricate. Hey, why not just pay me an extraordinary amount of money for mine and be done with it? <big grin> Did you know I'm also building a '94 Miata? Possibly a double-duty SM/ITS.

GregA

Andy Bettencourt
12-03-2004, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
Possibly a double-duty SM/ITS.

GregA

Perfect. Ours will run ITA/SM and ITS/SM.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

whenry
12-03-2004, 12:04 PM
We've seen the effect of "sloppy wording" in IT and SM and unintended consequences. "up to" in my opinion allows someone to reduce the size of their wheels. It would be better to state that wheel sizes cannot be reduced.
Now can someone do something with the "metal only" requirement since very few guys run metal wheels in IT. Lots may run alloy wheels but few are really metal.

Jake
12-03-2004, 12:44 PM
Let me try:
Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with wheels smaller than (15) inches may fit a larger than GCR-specified wheel up to fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

apr67
12-03-2004, 01:03 PM
Geez. Simplify

Replace:
Up to 15"

with

Up to A 15"

Andy Bettencourt
12-03-2004, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Jake:
Let me try:
Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with wheels smaller than (15) inches may fit a larger than GCR-specified wheel up to fifteen (15) inches. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

I usually don't operate in teh 'grey', but here it goes...

In this rule, cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may ONLY fit fourteen (14) inch wheels. They should be able to go to 15's...

And was pointed out to me earlier..."Cars originally equipped with wheels smaller than (15) inches may fit a larger than GCR-specified wheel up to fifteen (15) inches...: Does this leave a loophole to increase original diameter up to 15" OVER what you have?

How about this:

Cars originally equipped with wheels smaller than (15) inches may fit a larger than GCR-specified wheel up to fifteen (15) inches in total diameter.

Or just spell it out like Greg suggests above.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
ITA project SM
www.flatout-motorsports.com

Geo
12-03-2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
Here's your rule. Replace the whole goldarn section with:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13), fourteen (14), or fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or metric 365 wheels wheels may fit fourteen (14) or fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. Cars originally equipped with fourteen (14) inch or metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type.

Close, but still needs fixing. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

How about:

Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit twelve (12), thirteen (13), fourteen (14), or fifteen (15) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or metric 365 wheels wheels may fit thirteen (13), fourteen (14) or fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. Cars originally equipped with fourteen (14) inch or metric 390 wheels may fit fourteen (14), fifteen (15) inch diameter wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type as listed on the spec line.

The change is Greg forgot that you could still use the original size. And don't tell me that's a given considering the lawyering going on with the 05 rule as currently written.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Racerlinn
12-03-2004, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Andy Bettencourt:
Greg,
Oh ya, for you...look at the 1st and 5th picture down...two ITA cars...fun, fun fun... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
http://www.flatout-motorsports.com/results.php
AB


Well, at least the car in the 5th picture down is the correct color!
(Sorry, couldn't help myself, I'm still dizzy from reading Geo's haiku...)

------------------
Steve
'92 ITA Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org (http://www.indyscca.org)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/Racerlinn/ITA6b.jpg

[This message has been edited by Racerlinn (edited December 03, 2004).]

itbgti
12-03-2004, 02:18 PM
Andy,

From the Flatout Website:

"Who is that masked man? It’s a 1994 1.8 Miata being offered for sale. This one features an outstanding Chris Howard cage, a hardtop and a solid running motor. It can be completed to your specs or sold as is. Contact Bettencourt for details. And by the way, the first person to mention that they saw the car here gets a free Flatout T-shirt, so hustle!"

I SAW THE CAR THERE!!!! I SAW THE CAR THERE!!!!! (you make no mention of a requirement to purchase the car)

Please send me a shirt...Now with the shirt rule...I wear a medium, can I go UP TO a Large, OR if I hit the treadmill this winter hard, may I go DOWN TO a Small?

Kindest and warmest regards,
Alan

[This message has been edited by itbgti (edited December 03, 2004).]

Greg Amy
12-03-2004, 03:22 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The change is Greg forgot that you could still use the original size.</font>

No he didn't. Key word "may", not "must". Since these are allowances from stock, the original installed wheel size is allowed. If that wasn't true, then under the current rules the guys with 12" or metric wheels could not use their existing wheels sizes...GA

Diane
12-03-2004, 04:09 PM
Geez guys, I thought the table idea was pretty straightforward!

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


Diane

joeg
12-03-2004, 05:22 PM
Haven't seen many 12 inch or metric TRX tires on the Hoosier truck lately!

Renaultfool
12-03-2004, 05:56 PM
I have to agree with GregAmy, as long as you hog them out within 1 inch of the hub face with your ECU you should be ok. Right?
Using some of the logic I have read here and on some of the other threads lately it seems that you can do anything you want by using any interpretation of any word in or out of context. What rules.

And someone earlier in this thread had a problem of making it cheaper for someone to race. What's up with that? That should be the goal of IT in general. What can we allow everyone across the board to make it cheaper and safer.

How about restrictor plates with an iris that could be adjusted at tech before each race and sealed with a lead seal to prevent readjustment for that weekend. Use a certain formula to adjust them after the first timed practice to even out the competition for that race.

Or use the bracket racing rule from drag racing. You write your qualifing time on your window. If you run a faster lap than the qualifing time on your window you are out. Then group the cars by their stated times into race groups. That would save track time at each event by eliminating qualifing, all arguments about cheating, as only time would matter. You would have to run your best time that weekend to write on your window because if you sandbagged you would most likely "break out" in the heat of battle. This idea saved drag racing.

Geo
12-03-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
No he didn't. Key word "may", not "must". Since these are allowances from stock, the original installed wheel size is allowed. If that wasn't true, then under the current rules the guys with 12" or metric wheels could not use their existing wheels sizes...GA

Sorry Greg, but the way you have it worded, you could ONLY use a larger diameter wheel and not the original size. Don't tell me it's just a given. Not when you are spelling out the sizes that MAY be used. Because if you don't say it MAY be used it cannot.

Reread it.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Knestis
12-03-2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
Don't make me haiku you. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


I will refrain from any rice jokes.

K

Geo
12-03-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I will refrain from any rice jokes.

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
12-03-2004, 06:58 PM
I disagree, George. "May" allows it; "must" requires it.

I know we're playing word games here, but if we do it my way, "may" covers it because it's an allowance over and above what is listed on the spec line. If we do it your way, the word should be changed to "must" because that limits it to ONLY what the rule reads, and the spec line must therefore be ignored.

I think either way is fine, I just think your way is redundant.

Edit: to further support my position on this, George, glance through the ITCS and look at all the occurances of the word "may". If we interpreted that word your way, then we'd all be mandated to bend our shift levers above the tunnel or floor because the rule does not specifically list that we can run it without the bend. "May" is an allowance, "must" is a requirement, thus stock wheel diameter is not required to be listed in the rule. It MAY, though (BWAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH!!) - GA


[This message has been edited by GregAmy (edited December 03, 2004).]

Greg Amy
12-03-2004, 07:02 PM
I'd like to make it clear, by the way, that I find this discussion of semantics to be positive conversation. I'd rather throw these ideas into the bullring and get them done in advance rather than find out later that folks are running "technically legal" MoTec ECUs (for example).

We should do this much more often.

dickita15
12-03-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy:

We should do this much more often.


i must agree greg. we (the collective we)spend a lot of time bashing the way rules are worded. this is a wonderfull example of how hard it is to make the words follow the intent.
dick patullo

Knestis
12-03-2004, 09:09 PM
...and while we're patting one-another on the back, if you haven't read Dickita's (cha, cha, cha!) "Coyote and Roadrunner" analogy in the Mazda forum, you REALLY need to.

It is a GREAT illustration of why a go-slow approach to PCAs is so important, and is one of my new favorites.

K

lateapex911
12-03-2004, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
.. Dickita's (cha, cha, cha!)
Dickita's (cha, cha, cha!)
Dickita's (cha, cha, cha!)

K

It's kinda catchy, isn't it!

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Geo
12-03-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
I disagree, George. "May" allows it; "must" requires it.

Indeed. But you follow "may" with choices that don't include the stock diameter, therefore one could read it that you may use one of the choices, which actually don't include the stock diameters.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
12-03-2004, 10:30 PM
ITCS 17.1.4.D.4.e: "Shift lever may be bent above the tunnel or floor."

Per Geo, since the rule does not specifically include the option to use the shift lever without a bend, any cars that have straight shifter levers must heretofore bend them prior to the next competition.

Geo
12-03-2004, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by GregAmy:
ITCS 17.1.4.D.4.e: "Shift lever may be bent above the tunnel or floor."

Per Geo, since the rule does not specifically include the option to use the shift lever without a bend, any cars that have straight shifter levers must heretofore bend them prior to the next competition.

Right Greg. You know that's not what I'm saying. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/images/smilies/slap.gif



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

rbt510
12-06-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Jake:
Here's the full text. The uppercase "UP TO" was added in the Jan Fasttrack.

17.1.4.D.7.a.1 Cars originally equipped with twelve (12) inch wheels may fit thirteen (13) inch wheels. Cars originally equipped with metric 365 wheels may fit fourteen (14) inch wheels, and cars originally equipped with metric 390 wheels may fit fifteen (15) inch wheels. The above-mentioned cars as well as those cars originally equipped with thirteen (13) inch or fourteen (14) inch wheels may fit UP TO fifteen (15) inch wheels. All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type. Knockoff/quickchange type wheels are prohibited. Wheels must be made of metal.

Guys -
You are all ignoring the sentence, "All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type."... so only cars originally equipped with 13 or 14 inch rims can change ...

Bob


[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited December 06, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by rbt510 (edited December 06, 2004).]

Quickshoe
12-06-2004, 06:51 PM
I disagree Bob. Those with 12's, 13's, 14's, 365's and 390's can change, not just the 13 and 14 crowd.

rbt510
12-07-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
I disagree Bob. Those with 12's, 13's, 14's, 365's and 390's can change, not just the 13 and 14 crowd.

Agreed, but I was addressing the discussions about cars with 15's or 16's going down in size, which is disallowed by the other part of the rule.