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bldn10
10-14-2004, 11:52 AM
The incident in the SSC race at The Runoffs has generated a lot of debate (see sccaforums.com)re the relative rights (to racing room) and duties (to avoid contact) of the overtaken and overtaking cars when passing in corners. The scenario was that the overtaking car had a good run on the overtaken car, the overtaken car "left the door open," and the overtaking car late braked on the inside and got at least his front wheel ahead of the other car's rear wheel, and the leader turned in w/ ensuing contact. As you all know, the GCR provides little guidance, and SOM and COA decisions are inconsistent.

The poll question is: Is there a point in a pass when the right to "the line" or the right not to have to yield shifts from the overtaken car to the overtaking car? I.e., "getting a wheel on," halfway alongside, getting a nose in front of, or completing the pass?

I have discussed this w/ a number of drivers and there are varying opinions, which is kind of scary when you think about it. We need to be on the same page and I think a clarification in the GCR may be in order.

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racer_tim
10-14-2004, 12:40 PM
Just remember that it's the responsibility of BOTH drivers to avoid contact.

Racing is supposed to be a non-contact sport.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

spnkzss
10-14-2004, 01:04 PM
My "understanding" is bumper with door. I agree it is the duty of both drivers to avoid contact.

I find it interesting that this is brought up. I ended up in a situation at MARRS IX at Summit Point this past weekend. I got a good run out of 3 and came up on the inside going into 4. Before we entered 4 I was front bumper to front bumper on the inside. The other car came over and kept sqeezing me. I let up and started braking slightly (normally wide open through 4). Next thing I know he clips my drivers front with his passenger rear while I was 2 wheels off. He spun and rolled going into the turn and I somehow came out clear. He later told me that he knew I was there, but did not think I would pass him where I did and it was the "passers" responsibility to make a safe clear pass. BTW he was very civil about the whole thing, no harsh words said on either side and we considered it a "racing incident". After I showed him the in-car video he almost looked like he thought he shouldn't have done what he had.

Either way I consider a "nose in" to not quite be enough. You need to have quite a bit of your car in on him/her and have the line. When I say have the line I don't mean entry and exit, but mainly the apex. The passer needs to pay attention to what is going on since some drivers do not want to give an inch, but if you leave racing room, you have a bumper to the door and you have the line on the apex then you have the line and the passee needs to plan acordingly.

JMHO

Spanky
#73 ITC Honda Civic WDCR

ITSRX7
10-14-2004, 01:35 PM
Here is how I look at it:

If a car overtaking me has a front wheel past the rear wheel of my car, I bet I can see him real good out the window. He, at that point has established his intent and position. I must be fully aware that if I turn down on him he may be there and I may get spun out. I would then squeeze him a little but take the 'outside' line leaving enough room for both cars. You then continue to race for the next corner.

I tend to err on the side of giving room - why? Because I don't want to get spun out. BAD things can happen when that happens. Slamming the door is a bold move that, although warrented in some cases, is risky unless you TRUST the driver behind you.

My rule of thumb is anything past "front tire at rear tire" has established enough position so that you should give some racing room.

All IMHO.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Geo
10-14-2004, 02:04 PM
First of all, I would not appreciate some rule being written for the GCR. All it would do is move the point that is grey area anyway.

As a practical matter I'd say it really depends. In a corner less than 45* I'd say both sides need to make room if there is room for 2 cars side by side.

If the corner is greater than 45* I personally believe it becomes a matter of who controls the turn-in. If the inside car is more than half way up on the outside car, IMHO the inside car controls the turn-in and thus the apex. The inside car, thus controlling the turn-in can turn in as late as he/she likes, thus depriving the outside car of the apex.

If the inside car is not half way up, the outside can actually make the turn-in and if the inside car does not yield it will hit the outside car and be at fault IMHO.

All of this does not mean you come storming up the inside of the track and take out someone who was at the outside taking a "normal" line. In this case the inside car did not control the turn-in.

In the end, both cars are responsible and that's part of racing. I personally, like Andy, tend to be a little more generous with room. This is supposed to be fun and repairing twisted cars is not fun. But don't take it that I'm a wimp. It's just that if something is in question, I'd rather bring the car home.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

whenry
10-14-2004, 03:14 PM
I have always felt that if I can get my front fender on the "hip" of the car being passed, the corner will be mine but depending on who the other car is, I will leave myself some margin to pull back if necessary.
I really think that this is part of the issue: if your pass is requiring ALL that you have to pull it off(ie 11/10ths driving), it is too ambitious or aggressive.

jcmotorsports
10-14-2004, 03:43 PM
i think the most important thing here is using your head. i've been passed quite a few times and i have also passed cars. in a situation, every driver is going to feel that he/ she had the corner and it was the other driver's fault instead of using common sense and avoiding contact. i personally always try to avoid contact and tend to give up corners, but so what there is always the next corner. if you squeeze someone too much that could be the end of your race or worse. SO JUST USE YOUR HEAD AND KEEP IT CLEAN!
john costello

Knestis
10-14-2004, 04:51 PM
It's a little bit of an overstatement, but nose of the passer less than 1/2 way up the length of the passee's car, the passer is obligated to yield when the passee gets to a sensible - if late - turn-in point. If the passer doesn't have enough in reserve to brake that little bit more to allow this to happen, it meets my personal definition of a "banzai." We should NOT be making passes that we can't back out of in club races.

This is partially because geometry pretty much demands that he turn in earlier than the guy on the outside, or run the heck into him.

If you get more than 1/2 a car inside of me and are going to make a typical turn-in, I'm going to say "touche" and let you have it. Either that or slow down a little more and drive around off-line, leaving you enough room on the inside, in hopes of getting you on the inside in the next turn - if there is one.

If you have used up all of your margin of error getting that nose poked way up in there, I'm going to hang out there for a tick and try to late-apex behind you as you overshoot, and try to "get you on the come-back."

The whole point here is that the person who is clever or sneaky should be rewarded with a successful pass. I want NOTHING to do with the guy who's simply foolhardy (or rich) enough to huck himself at any hole, and is literally counting on his victim running away for the pass to work without impact...

K

Scooter
10-14-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Here is how I look at it:

If a car overtaking me has a front wheel past the rear wheel of my car, I bet I can see him real good out the window. ...

My rule of thumb is anything past "front tire at rear tire" has established enough position so that you should give some racing room.



This is basically how I look at it as well. If someone is in my blindspot, then they need to get out of the way when I turn. But if I can see them alongside me at all, then it's stupid to just cut them off.

And frankly, chances are that they've been sitting behind you trying to pass and they're going to get it done eventually. Don't be a d*ck. If/when the positions are reversed, you'll want them to do the same.

The best races I've had is when another car and I are passing each other back and forth, depending on where we're fast. Not when I'm sitting there blocking someone for half the race.

Quickshoe
10-14-2004, 06:13 PM
My rule of thumb is that if I can't get to the "racing line" without making contact with the other guy than I don't have the right to go there...no matter our relative positions.

If the other guy can't get to the "racing line" without making contact with me. He doesn't own it either.

We must both share the corner...neither of us having the optimum line until we can get on that line without making contact. That is what racing side by side is all about.

Again, just my opinion. The ethics I adhere to while I am on the track.

joeg
10-15-2004, 08:02 AM
Scooter says it best "...don't be a (choose your expletive)..."

If someone comes up on your rear end after a couple laps, he is probably faster; DON'T CHOP if he tries an inside pass.

bldn10
10-15-2004, 10:43 AM
George says he doesn't want to change the rules but look at the disparate opinions we have just w/ these few posts. Here we have several drivers stating their "understanding" of how we have to race in the context of the existing rules. Saying that both cars have to avoid contact just doesn't work because more than likely both drivers have an "understanding" of when the other driver is going to yield, and they are going to drive assuming he will do so. The problem is that everyone does not have the same "understanding" - and that is where I think the rules need to give at least some guidance. Here we have George and Knestis saying that the overtaking car has to be at least halfway alongside but several others settling for a couple of feet less. Some I've discussed this with think you actually have to have a nose IN FRONT to take the corner. I think like Andy - if I have left the door open and the guy got a run on me and is coming alongside, he has earned the corner. I'll give it to him and try to position myself to take it away if his late braking causes him to drift wide. In the SSC scenario I described, the overtaken car spun and the overtaking car went on to win. But the Runoffs SOM stripped him of his National Championship because of that move. I agree w/ George that there will always be some gray area, but isn't reducing it from 10' down to 2-3' better?

apr67
10-15-2004, 11:04 AM
If I am just up on your rear bumper or wheel, then I assume you don't know I'm there and back out near turn in.

Anything else, I feel I am entitiled to have my car on the pavement. I am not entitled to hit you. Conversly you are entitled to have your car on the pavement (racetrack) and you are not entitled to hit me.

I got hit at Homestead. I was passing in turn (4 I think), and I had a front wheel even with another miata's rear wheel. We banged wheels and both continued on. I got a dirty (blue paint) tire, he got a ripped bumper. I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.

Geo
10-15-2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by bldn10:
George says he doesn't want to change the rules but look at the disparate opinions we have just w/ these few posts.


Originally posted by bldn10:
I agree w/ George that there will always be some gray area, but isn't reducing it from 10' down to 2-3' better?

I think there will always be disparate opinions. Making a rule will not reduce the size of the grey area, it will only change where it is placed. I also don't want passing rules to be so defined that it "legislates" the racing. There are other groups that do this. PCA and BMWCCA both race with a 13/13 rule and very strict rules regarding passing. I consider it somewhat less than competitive racing.

Lest you think I don't fully grasp what you're talking about, I'll tell you I was a victim of stupid rulings by the race director in a kart race. I was fully alongside someone at the turn-in and he stayed outside in a sweeper. He pinched me down to the point I put two tires in the grass and he kept coming until he touched and spun off. I was DQ'd. BAD call, but they occasionally happen. Legislating passing rules will not eliminate bad judgements on the part of drivers or officials.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

mlytle
10-15-2004, 01:24 PM
as a part time bmwcca racer, i must have missed the "strict rules on passing" in the rule book. ;-) the 13/13 rule is a strict rule to discourage contact, not passing. there are no special passing rules. same passing moves are allowed in bmwcca as scca, you are just supposed to think a little more about the consequences before you do it....

marshall

m glassburner
10-15-2004, 02:08 PM
Just think a bit next time you attempt a
pass and it's iffy...a cut tire....hmmmmm
ponder that tire going down when you need
it most....I do! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif

Knestis
10-15-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by apr67:
... I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.

I'm going to resist the temptation to paint all SM drivers with the same brush but THAT is the guy I want nothing to do with.

K

ddewhurst
10-15-2004, 02:29 PM
***In the SSC scenario I described, the overtaken car spun and the overtaking car went on to win. But the Runoffs SOM stripped him of his National Championship because of that move.***

I would like to add some to the above note. The SSC car that lost the race because of the above stated note IIRC on the 1st or 2nd lap whaled http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/eek.gif on the rear of the car ahead of him two times between T7 & T8. That ain't a place for the good ol boys to be bump drafting. Sitting on the hill watching. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David
CenDiv

Bill Miller
10-15-2004, 05:56 PM
I like Kirk's scenario, and it's pretty much what I use. I'm not real crazy about how the rule is currently written, as I think it encourages banzai moves.

As far as this asshat goes,
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I talked to him after the race and he made it clear that I could have been anywhere and he would have done the same thing.</font>

I had an almost run-in w/ a driver w/ a similar attitude. It was the first qualifying session of the first race of the season at Summit Point. Was comming up to Turn 10, which for those of you who've never been to Summit Point, is the last turn before the 3000' long front straight. It's a very fast righthander, but some soft sand/dirt off driver's left, at track out.

Anyway, this other driver banzais me up the inside, approaching the turn, and moves over on me, so he can get to the outside, for a better turn-in. He did this when we were pretty much side by side. I was racing in ITB at the time, and Turn 10 is a breath of the throttle, turn in, and back on the gas. I had to jump on the brakes hard, or this guy would have driven me off the track. And this is in a qualifying session!!!!

When I spoke to the driver on the false grid for the next session, he said that if he would have turned in from mid-track, it would have screwed up both our lap times, and he didn't see the need for that. This guy as a rep as an arrogant blow-hard, and drives a tank of a car, so he figures he can get away w/ it.

Sorry for the rant.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

m glassburner
10-16-2004, 03:01 AM
These "people" don't realise it'll be their arse that goes into the wall or other hard object as well....my favorite saying...to finish first, first you must finish!!

RSTPerformance
10-18-2004, 02:39 AM
13/13 rule is hopefully never going to happen. mistakes do happen when you are driving at 10/10ths. if you have metal to metal all the time then something needs to be done but it is not always your fault. Drivers need to be spoken to before a ruling is made...

As far as leaving racing room..... leave it! there are at least 2 lines for every turn and good racing/ fun racing is side by side. EVERY TRACK you cna go two wide in every turn! do it and have fun!

IF you are getting passed blocking is unacceptable. If you hit tire to tire it is the car being overtaken who is at fault. If the tire mark is up past that rear tire it is the car being overtaken who is at fault again. That is the way the rule should read.... if there is a tire mark on the rear bumper then it is the guy trying to hard IE the guy trying desperatly to overtake the guy in front.

People that turn in on others need to realize that the guy trying ot out brake you or pass you on the inside of a turn is probably slowing down as fast as he can. If you turn in he has nowhere to go. Leave him room! If he messed up and went in to hot you need to leave him room as well. Letting him by is better than a dent and or a crash. Take the smaller trophy instead of the dents!

Stephen

bldn10
10-18-2004, 10:24 AM
Well, as I expected, there is no consensus on this point, and the majority appears to be at odds w/ the SOM at The Runoffs. So, isn't it clear now that the "rules" need to be clarified? If not, would someone please explain to me why not? As it is, we have no guidance and the SOM and COA can do anything they want just be making ad hoc definitions of the relative rights and duties of the 2 drivers.

apr67
10-18-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

If you hit tire to tire it is the car being overtaken who is at fault. If the tire mark is up past that rear tire it is the car being overtaken who is at fault again. That is the way the rule should read.... if there is a tire mark on the rear bumper then it is the guy trying to hard IE the guy trying desperatly to overtake the guy in front.


I disagree. It depends on who had the option of avoiding the incident to some extent. If I am on the inside and already up to the edge of the track, I can't 'give' any more track. If you are on the outside, and almost in the dirt, then you can't 'give' any more track.

emwavey
10-18-2004, 10:58 AM
I'm glad to see that most who post here error on the side of caution... to you I look forward to sharing the track with you, hopefully next year.

I've heard stories like what has been mentioned about folks who either make bonzai moves or are just "asshats". And yeah this causes me concern.

I don't think the SCCA or anyone else can legislate a conscience, but having a clear expression of what is acceptable and what isn't wouldn't hurt either... doesn't have to be in the GCR, but could simply be expressed at the driver's meeting. No?

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-dave
8) <A HREF="http://www.nerdsracing.com
Got" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nerdsracing.com
Got</A> Photos?... post 'em here: http://y3k.shacknet.nu:31338/gallery/

gsbaker
10-18-2004, 11:14 AM
Originally posted by Bill Miller:
...This guy as a rep as an arrogant blow-hard, and drives a tank of a car, so he figures he can get away w/ it.

At circle tracks, this is what someone eventually says to said arrogant blow-hard at the end of the feature race:

"Gee, that's too bad. I've been fighting a 'loose off' problem all night. I never expected that when I dropped the hammer on the exit of T2, unleashing 600 HP, I would slam my 3,000# car into your driver's door and shred your entire right-side suspension on the concrete wall. Oh well, that's racin'!"

Gregg

RSTPerformance
10-18-2004, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by apr67:
I disagree. It depends on who had the option of avoiding the incident to some extent. If I am on the inside and already up to the edge of the track, I can't 'give' any more track. If you are on the outside, and almost in the dirt, then you can't 'give' any more track.



Actually we agree..... I was talking about incidents when both cars have plenty of racing room.... the moment before one or the other decides to take the line and push the other one off. I would suspect that no dent's scratches or dings would occur before at least 1 car ran out of racing room since evrey track I can think of you can go two wide anyware. so the evaluation I gave was assuming both cars still had racing room and wasn't pushed off track....yet. Thanks for clarifying, I should have said that earlier.

Stephen

RSTPerformance
10-18-2004, 02:24 PM
A agree with what people have said that if your tire is up to or past the rear of anothers tire AT ANY POINT of the turn then it is both of yours turn, and the best part of "racing" has begun!!!

I have this problem (or had it a few times with ITS cars). In an ITB car it is very hard to compleatly overtake a faster car before making the turn in. All drivers should be prepaired to run side by side when they see someone make a move off line.

Also I STRONGLY agree with Stephen on the fact that EVERY track I have raced at 2 cars can go side by side in EVERY turn.

PS: Stephen, I have never seen you block but thought I would make another clarification based on what you said: Blocking is not moving off line once. IE: taking the inside line going into a turn. however moving twice from side to side shutting the door whenever someone tries to take a peak is blocking. (I don't want to get off topic, but I thought it was a little related)

Raymond "2 cars going round the outside, round the outside...um wrong song" Blethen

bldn10
10-19-2004, 10:43 AM
Dave, a statement at the drivers' meeting is not good enough because it would not be binding on the SOM or COA. But, taking your thought a step further, it has ocurred to me that, if the SCCA will not clarifiy the rules, perhaps Regions can do so in the Supplemental Regulations.

There is another side of this situation - when no contact occurs. What if, according to whatever interpretation a particular SOM or COA wants to make, the overtaken car had the corner but yielded to an overtaking car to avoid contact and lost a position. To be consistent, that driver should be able to protest the other and regain his position despite the lack of contact. Unless, of course, we just want to outlaw contact and place the blame on the last driver who had the opportunity to avoid it. I don't think we want to do that. So, an infraction is an infraction and deserves the same penalty whether contact is made or not - the "injury" suffered by the yielding driver is loss of his position, momentum, etc. and he should be compensated by penalizing the other.

Geo
10-19-2004, 12:42 PM
Boondoggle comes to mind here.

Bill, you're right, if the GCR were amended to clearly spell out all the parameters of passing, failure to yeild on the part of the driver being overtaken could be protestable. Wouldn't that be nice.

Passing is the essence of racing. IMHO it should not be legislated. Furthermore judgement regarding blame in the case of contact should not be legislated either. It's a judgement call. But that's racing. It's always been that way. And IMHO it should remain that way.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

bldn10
10-19-2004, 03:05 PM
So, George, you would be willing to accept 2 diametrically opposite protest outcomes from 2 absolutely identical incidents? Not me. The no-contact protest scenario is not one that would be created by a more specific set of rules - it exists now. I just don't know if anyone has ever tried it.

Blocking has been mentioned but it too is not defined in the GCR. Some say you are entitled to 1 jink (every dog gets 1 bite)before it is blocking but 9.1.1.C. says that abrupt changes in direction to impede an overtaking car may be interpreted as blocking. We can argue over whether the use of "changes" in the plural means it takes more than one, but I don't think that is the intent.

The more I read the existing rules re blocking and giving racing room the more I come to the conclusion that the intent is that the overtaken car has to leave at least a car width for any car that has taken an inside line and is overtaking in a controlled manner (i.e. no banzai passes) even he has not come alongside at all. I.e. if I am drafting you down the straight and pull fully out on the inside, you cannot deprive me of the inside line I have established. That means you may have to give up your normal line. On the other hand, if you ease over to the right such that there is not a car width line for me to take, I have to back off. I suggest that this is the most internally consistent construction of the current rules. Of course, The Runoffs SOM did just the opposite. Is that not a problem?

Geo
10-19-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by bldn10:
So, George, you would be willing to accept 2 diametrically opposite protest outcomes from 2 absolutely identical incidents?

Over every passing attempt being subject to protest and further argument? You bet.

"My wheel was at his door and he didn't yeild. He should be penalized enough for his final position to be behind me." And other nonsense.


Originally posted by bldn10:
The Runoffs SOM did just the opposite. Is that not a problem?

I don't know, I wasn't there.

But it sounds to me that you want to legislate mistakes from happening, and that is not possible. IMHO it will just create further boondoggle.

I don't know the detail in this situation, but I will say that mistakes will always happen and all the laws in the world will not prevent this.

And do you really want passes (and races) decided through protests? Or do you want passing to be made easy? To some extent, some passing in racing has always come down to just exactly who will back down first.

And if there are already rules to cover this (by your own words), why do we need more rules?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited October 19, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
10-19-2004, 06:34 PM
I agree with George a bit here... I don't want to see rules made to judge passes, every contact is a unique situation and blame can really go many different ways. I could easily always hit someone past the rear tire.... hit the gas as the competitor is on the brakes... I bet you will gain 2 feet!!!

Each case should be handled on an individual bases, although with that I do agree that their needs to be consistency among all drivers at AN EVENT. For instance last year protests were made at the ARRC for inconsistent penalties, and drivers won where stewards were unjust. Obviously this won’t always work, but at some point we have to say enough rules is enough, let’s have fun.

Raymond "At least we can protest a steward’s decision... Those Red Sox only get to yell at the umps for those unfair calls http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif"
Blethen

Eric Parham
10-20-2004, 05:49 PM
When I first started road racing, one of my SCCA instructors told me the "two change rule", which basically says that a driver being passed may not move off line more than once per corner to prevent a pass.

Unfortunately, I later had cause to protest a blocked pass based on this understanding. I recall protesting a driver who moved off line to block my feigned pass on the right edge of the track and then moved off line a second time to block my actual attempt on the left edge of the track. There was contact as I attempted (unsuccessfully) to avoid getting pushed into the guardrail.

I was just going to take my lumps and go home, but a few others talked me into lodging the protest based on "racing room". I still recall Kathy B. asking me where in the GCR it stated that the overtaken driver could not block more than once per corner, and having to admit that "it's not in the GCR"! I lost the protest (partially because the corner workers were never even consulted), and suddenly began to seriously doubt my understanding of "the rules".

Finally, within the past two years, I read (and saved) a COA decision that used that type of language to define unallowed blocking (no more than one movement off line, IIRC). I don't have the citation with me, but I have carried that COA decision with my GCR to every event since then. IMHO, even if it's not codified in the GCR, such COA decisions can be offered to support this type of protest (and others).

Edited for typos. I'll try to add that COA citation next weekend.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited October 20, 2004).]

David Ferguson
10-20-2004, 05:56 PM
I read a great description recently that echos my own sense of what constitutes "racing room". See for yourself if you agree:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/Primer/rulesofroad.htm

Joe Craven
10-20-2004, 06:05 PM
NASA has a much more extensive definition and examples of what is considered good and illegal passing and blocking.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

Unfortunately, I was involved in a minor SCCA on course race incident with another driver in my class which involved different expectations in what is "good" driving and blocking and what is a driving line. GCR definitely wasn't any help.

Joe Craven

Eric Parham
10-20-2004, 07:02 PM
Thanks, I read both the BMWCCA and NASA rules.

The BMWCCA method seems to be more of a gentleman's agreement, perhaps like SCCA used to be. When it comes to modern competitors pushing the envelope on several fronts (including, unfortunately, "safe passing" and "racing room"), I think the BMWCCA rules are probably not an improvement over our current GCR (although I do appreciate the intent).

The NASA method is discussed below in my next post.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited October 20, 2004).]

JeffG
10-20-2004, 07:07 PM
I read a great description recently that echos my own sense of what constitutes "racing room". See for yourself if you agree:

http://www.bmwccaclubracing.com/Primer/rulesofroad.htm[/QUOTE]

This is a good description!

The bottom line for me is that we are CLUB racing, primarily as a hobby. There should be no tolerance for club drivers that want to bang around for a position. The key is awareness! Both drivers need to allow the other adequate room, both at the apex and at track out. While one may technically have the position established, both are responsible for avoiding contact.

It’s a lot more fun to be out with a group of equally matched cars that are constantly overtaking each other than to parade around. We usually know who we can trust to allow this sort of racing and the key is a matter of etiquette, not simply “do I have the right to close the door”!

OK, it’s different at the runoffs or possibly the ARRC, but never IMHO at a regional event. If one wants to rub for 20th go WC racing.

Jeff

Eric Parham
10-20-2004, 07:24 PM
I just found pages 101-102 of the NASA rules. Excellent! The NASA racing rules not only define "blocking" and "racing room", but also provide a reasonable measurement point (front tire of overtaking car even with overtaken driver, for sedans) at which the overtaken driver may be deemed to have seen the overtaking car and must provide racing room. I like it http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited October 20, 2004).]

bldn10
10-21-2004, 11:07 AM
Now we are making progress here!

Eric, your intructor was stating his personal opinion re blocking because, as you noted, his definition is NOT in the GCR. And you can have that COA opinion bronzed but COA opinions are NOT binding precedent and any SOM or COA can come to a completely opposite conclusion. That is another pet peeve of mine - I think COA opinions should be precedential. That way, even w/o changing the GCR we end up with (more or less) consistent clarifications and applications over time.

The BMW explanation sounds exactly like what I surmised and stated above. However, again, The Runoffs SOM apparently decided that the overtaking car was NOT entitled to racing room and that the overtaken car was free to turn in early.

Although I had never seen them, the NASA passing rules are just what I had in mind. I'm sure those guys still argue about interpretations but those rules would seem to me to clear up a lot of the ambiguity and give the drivers pretty clear notice of what they can do and not do.

bldn10
10-25-2004, 10:11 AM
Here we go again - the COA provides another interesting example of application of "the rules." In the latest Fastrack an appeal covers 3 contacts:

1. Overtaking car pulls out on straight and gets "side-to-side;" overtaken car closes door. Result - overtaken car violates 9.1.1.B. by not leaving racing room.
2. Car A "maintained his position at the exit of the corner" and forced Car B into grass. Result - Car A violates 9.1.1.B. and 14.1.7. (unsportsmanlike conducr).
3. Overtaken car has 1/2 car-length lead on outside of turn and turns-in for apex causing contact. Result - Overtaking car violates 9.1.1.B.

The decision supports my premise that racing room is the key to the rules as they are written and applied. No car has the corner by virtue of its position vis a vis the other - the car that takes away or fails to give racing room is going to be at fault. Re blocking, notice No. 2 above where Car A did not make ANY move to block but simply held his position. That should dispel any notion that you get 1 free move.

Of course, this is still inconsistent w/ the SOM at The Runoffs, which penalized the overtaking car even though it was the overtaken car that turned in early and took away the overtaking car's racing room as in No. 3.

dickita15
10-25-2004, 10:18 AM
that has been my thoughts since the racing room part was added a couple of years ago. if there is any overlap you need to leave the other car a car width, but you do not have to give him any more. In practicality if i only have a few inches of overlap on a car i am passing i would not be suprised if he closed the door either intentionally of not relizing it was that close.
dick