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gran racing
05-21-2004, 11:27 AM
I realize that this topic might not be the wisest discussion for me to bring up and I should probably put a big target on my poor blue CRX, but many people including myself feel this needs to be further addressed.

The purpose of this discussion is to see how we could reduce cheating in IT racing, but it could useful in other classes as well. I’m not sure it matters too much why people cheat, other then to address possible issues that often lead to it. With the proposed PCAs, hopefully some of the temptation will be reduced. But that’s another discussion.

Cheating happens on all levels of racing – it is just a fact and it will probably always happen. But more could be done to discourage cheating and catch those who do. Often times I feel cheating occurs due to a trickle down effect. A person believes that another racer who is faster is cheating (whether true or not), then begins to cheat themselves. It just seems to snowball. Other times people feel that their car is misclassed and their only way to be competitive is to cheat. Of course there is also the belief that you they won’t be caught. I’m sure that a person who is cheating has some rationale behind it. And it doesn’t mean that they are a bad person. Wouldn’t it be much easier if people knew everyone else is legal and the ramifications of cheating are just too great to risk it? I would imagine things would be made much easier and less stressful even for those who are currently cheating.

I have spoken with many tech inspectors in different regions. Often times they can’t help but chuckle at some of the things that they see and that nothing is done about it. And the tech inspectors or other workers should NOT be put in a position to protest cars. Besides, they are volunteers helping us and shouldn’t have to worry about this task. And I’m not talking about “minor” illegal items, but things such as cams. I have also spoken with several engine builders. The first time it came up I was really caught off guard. Guess I was just being naïve before. The builder goes on to explain what they could do to the engine, and the gains that could be seen. Wow! Often times this build is even cheaper then if they were to build a legal engine and it sure would have more power. It has been explained that they build these “cheater” engines for many SCCA racers. (Whether this is true or not, who knows) They then go on to explain that it is such a remote chance you’ll be caught because there is no easy way to determine that it is illegal unless it is torn down.

At this point, you might be asking then why don’t you protest a car that you feel is cheating? There are many reasons why people don’t protest. For a mid-pack driver like myself, I just don’t bother. If I finish 20th or 19th, does it really matter? There are also several other reasons. People also don’t want to ruffle any feathers and make enemies. These are just a few common reasons, but there are many more.

Is there a way to implement a method that does not require an individual process the protest and be “the bad guy”? It should still be possible for people to protest someone else’s car; this would be in addition to the other new method. This method would need to make sure it is not too intrusive and a pain in the butt for non-cheaters.

Possible methods? This is where we need to do some thinking; I honestly do not know what the real answer is. In another previous post, the idea was somewhat jokingly suggested of doing a potluck raffle. But hey, maybe something like that could work? Maybe do random item checks of miscellaneous things (much more than now) on the top finishing cars. Possibly open this random check up to the top 1/3 of the field. Have a list of the current “hot cheater items” to look for and the related cost to evaluate them. For example: Higher then allowed compression (cheap to check), cams (log book I have says $100 to test), and etcetera. How do you pay for the cost of these random inspections? Make it a part of the entry fee. Maybe build a “You Better be Legal” fund. In one race don’t inspect any cars in great detail (like now); in another do several checks. I’d be more than willing to pay $5.00 more to ensure more cars are legal.

Publish the list of cheaters in FasTrack – “Hall of Shame.” Include the car, person’s name, region, what they got caught for. It should not include people who are in violation of “minor” items (would need to come up with a list of what is deemed minor).

Stiffer penalties need to be imposed then currently are listed. Maybe if a driver is caught with an illegal cam, ban them for 365 days from all SCCA racing. Right now (and I could be wrong), it is like being warned that if you go 100 mph in a 55 mph zone the police officer will delay you for up to ½ hour on the side of the road. Get caught more then 8 times in three years, and you’ll lose your drivers license for up to a year. I know, this is a bit of an exaggeration but you get the point.

Before implementing the new methods I certainly do not think it would be such a bad thing to make it very public that at the end of the season, if your car is currently illegal you better use the off-season to make it legal. By doing it this way, it gives people the opportunity who have gotten caught in the snowball to correct things. We also need to realize that someone might have something illegal and simply is not aware of it. The violation also needs to fit the punishment. This could be another big discussion on its own.

Why not make IT a beta for a new method to regulate illegal cars? Many of us complain about it (whether founded or not) – shouldn’t something be done? What can be done for the future – the past is the past.

Please provide your ideas, suggestions, and thoughts on what could be done realistically and fairly. Of course we’re not going to tear down the entire field; not silly stuff like that. Hopefully people won’t just react to this or twist things around.

In any replies to this thread, DO NOT mention any specific cars or people that you think or know are cheating.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

apr67
05-21-2004, 12:06 PM
I think every divisonal series should consider having a tech fund as part of the entry fee.

Most of these series have a race that you have to be at to be the winner. In the midwest, its the double points race, in the SouthEast its the SARRC Invitational.

Then at these races you could do a little more than tech normally can.

I think posting every protest and every result, just like they do for COA stuff now, should be done. Prehaps we need to use a member portal on the SCCA website so fast track doesn't end up 1000 pages long.

Alan

racer14itc
05-21-2004, 12:41 PM
Alan, are you suggesting that the FV, F500, Prod and other racers in the SEDIV pay higher SARRC entry fees so that the IT guys can have more rules enforcement? I sure hope not. Racing is getting expensive enough as it is!

The issue here is that there is already a system in place to monitor cheating: the protest system. If it doesn't bother someone enough that their competitor is cheating to protest, then so be it. If it bothers you enough, then post the teardown bond and get on with it.

Also, the GCR already has procedures in it to vary the penalty depending on the severity of the crime.

Another problem is that I'd estimate that 50% of the IT racers out there have never read the rule book when building their car! They go by what other people tell them is "OK". It's always amazing to me when I point out something that is wrong/illegal on a car and the owner says "really? The rules don't allow that?". And if they have a GCR, often it is several years old!

I DO have a problem with engine builders knowingly building illegal engines for people, but in the long run that is a bad business policy. All it takes is one protest/DQ and word gets out that the engine builder is a cheater. Although it doesn't seem like it sometimes, there is still an honor code among SCCA racers and cheaters tend to be scorned/discounted.

My philosophy when I raced ITC was something along these lines: until I was fast enough to challenge the known legal "big dogs" in ITC (Rebstock, Perry, Silegren, Puckett, Chaney, etc.), I didn't even give a second though to the other guys in the field who may or may not have been cheating. And it was pretty obvious who was cheating mid-pack but couldn't drive worth crap! The fast ITC guys raced and had been torn down at the ARRC and were found legal, so those guys were the ones I worried about.

The bottom line is that we race for a trophy and there isn't a lot of money on the line, so anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a $10 chunk of wood is a loser. Period. Don't worry about it.

Now that I've moved to production, it's a different animal. The guys I race with in nationals are guys who have been to the Runoffs, have been torn down and proven legal. And FAST! So I don't worry too much about cheating since eventually we all have to put up or shut up at the Runoffs.

Mark Coffin

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

racer14itc
05-21-2004, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by gran racing:
Have a list of the current “hot cheater items” to look for and the related cost to evaluate them. For example: Higher then allowed compression (cheap to check), cams (log book I have says $100 to test), and etcetera. How do you pay for the cost of these random inspections? Make it a part of the entry fee. Maybe build a “You Better be Legal” fund. In one race don’t inspect any cars in great detail (like now); in another do several checks. I’d be more than willing to pay $5.00 more to ensure more cars are legal.



I missed a couple of things the first time I read this and wanted to add a couple of things.

The compression test: not sure how "cheap" it is to test. If someone was protesting me, I'd make sure they paid to pull the cylinder head, cc'd the pistons, head and did the exact calculation. The accuracy of the "whistlers" is questionable. Teardown bond: $hundreds.

Cam test: the $100 is JUST the cost of sending the cam to the test machine at SCCA. It still will cost you $hundreds to get the cam out of the engine, especially if it's a cam-in-block engine.

I'm not willing to add $5 to my entry fee to ensure IT legality. I hate being nickled and dimed to death. Now if JUST the IT drivers want it, then that's another issue. But ask them all first!!

MC


------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

GKR_17
05-21-2004, 12:54 PM
Something I'd like to see changed is the policy of not allowing the protestor to monitor the teardown and view the suspect parts. This is done to preserve any prep secrets. However, in IT the rules are clear as to what you're allowed to do so there shouldn't be any prep secrets. When the SOM's are hostile to your protest (I've seen this several times) to begin with, it is very difficult to have any confidence in their findings when you're not allowed to see the parts.

gran racing
05-21-2004, 01:30 PM
"Also, the GCR already has procedures in it to vary the penalty depending on the severity of the crime."

Yes, and I stated this in my initial post. But come on, what am I really risking by cheating? Based on the current penalty system, not much.

"Another problem is that I'd estimate that 50% of the IT racers out there have never read the rule book when building their car! They go by what other people tell them is "OK". It's always amazing to me when I point out something that is wrong/illegal on a car and the owner says "really? The rules don't allow that?". And if they have a GCR, often it is several years old!"

Don't you think a new method would serve as a wake-up call?

Cost - again, I'm not saying I have all of the answers. I just think this needs to be looked into. Maybe there are other ways to cover these costs? I don't think it would be such a bad thing to evaluate a new process and see where it goes.

"The issue here is that there is already a system in place to monitor cheating: the protest system. If it doesn't bother someone enough that their competitor is cheating to protest, then so be it. If it bothers you enough, then post the teardown bond and get on with it."

If only life were so clear and simple. How often do you see protests in regional races? Not talking about the ARRC. You think people don't care about winning or that others may be illegal? Come on. As GKR 17 pointed out, the process is pretty intimidating. And you think that people don't protest because they don't care enough? I know you are wrong.

Now if something were done by SCCA and it was closely monitored by the group...who knows.

Hey, if nothing else people become more educated about the protest policy through this tread then so be it. At least it is a baby step. I know I've learned a lot about it before I made this post.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

racer14itc
05-21-2004, 02:22 PM
Dave,

I understand where you're coming from. You'd like the "SCCA" to be big brother and take on the chore of ensuring compliance of all competitors so every feels like they had a fair shake. But I think it'd be very difficult to establish a "compliance committee" at the regional race level for a variety of reasons.

Our races are for "fun". Especially at the regional level. How much fun would it be if a portion of the field was forced to stick around at the track after their race was over so that the "compliance committee" could tear down cars to ensure compliance. Would you like it if you had to stick around until late Sunday night every weekend if you finished in the top third of your class just so that the tech guys could crawl around cars and make sure that everyone "earned that trophy"?

Don't take my responses the wrong way. I'm on your side. I raced IT for 6 years and had a blast. But I kept it all in perspective. Yeah, I KNEW people cheated and KNEW who they were. But it just didn't matter enough to me in the grand scheme of things (life, love, etc.) to really care about it. I raced because I enjoyed it but my life really wouldn't change one bit if I successfully protested someone who beat me illegally. Did it bother me sometimes when I got beat by someone who cheated, yeah. But if we all got beat by folks who I knew were legal it just made me that more determined to find a way to win legally.

The most successful approach I/we ITC racers found was the community intervention. A group of us would approach the suspected cheater and together we'd point out what we felt was wrong and that we'd all collectively protest at the next event if the illegalities weren't addressed. Strength in groups if you will.

Trying to force a "big brother" approach in an all-volunteer organization just won't work, in my humble opinion. The stewards, tech guys, etc., all want to go home on Sunday afternoon too. If someone wants to lodge a protest, then they will deal with it. But the "compliance committee" approach just creates more work and longer weekends for everybody and I don't think it would be very popular.

Again, I know what you're trying to accomplish. If the solution were easy, someone would have come up with one by now. The fact that we still have a competitor -based protest system tells me that a better solution hasn't be found.

MC

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Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Airborn Coatings/The Shop VW
Scirocco
Zephyr Race Coaching and Consulting
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited May 21, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
05-21-2004, 03:43 PM
Cheating...

I suggested the "drawing out of a hat" idea before. I still think it is a great idea, however I don't think that everyone in a class would participate. A key point to the idea was that the idea would be organized by the drivers of a class as a whole. Tech probably wouldn't be impressed that class if every race had protests, but hey if SCCA doesn't want to do it, then I certainly think that we as drivers/compeditors can. I personally like that idea of "self governing" what WE as a class feel are issues.

I have not gone forth to try and impliment anything in ITB in the Northeast because I can honestly say that I think every car is legal that has raced thus far. Last year I certainly felt their were a few not so legal cars. My problems stemed from people knowingly cheating and not pulling out of the race on the last lap. I have much less of an issue with cheaters as long as they don't effect the end results, and they are fun to race with... (Example, last year someone raced a ITB car knowing that it was illigal, did very well in the car, couldn't afford to fix the car correctly. He/she should have pulled in on the last lap, as some people are racing towards a championship)

Anyway, I will keep my fingers crossed and hope that everyone stays legal this year!!! If anyone else would like to start up something then I would be very happy to join in. I know that my brother also would be as he has very stong opinions about the issue as well.

Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing

gran racing
05-21-2004, 04:16 PM
Mark, I hear you and agree with most of what you said. Of course we wouldn't want something to lengthen the day / weekends. Maybe a pre-race check? Don't know. I just know it really gets to me sometimes; more then others.

I like the idea of a group of racers in a class getting together. That still takes the pressure off of one single person. And approaching the person in a civil and nice manner before protesting them is another great idea.

Some of the times I've seen in the past, well...like RX7 Jake said it is a matter of physics. Just not possible.

Could a list of anticipated costs be created for protesting certain items? Maybe simply providing more info. on the subject and greater explaination of the proceess might help. An article in FasTrack about the process? Yeah, it technically is in the GCR but I've read it several times and still have many questions. I could as the SOM, but it would be nice if the process were communicated and explained more fully to everyone. I have spoken with several racers and they have the same confusion / intimidation about the process.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

gran racing
05-21-2004, 04:19 PM
I guess since I'm talking about all of this, I should cancel my crane order. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Jake
05-21-2004, 10:10 PM
My 2cents - drawing out of the hat idea is AWESOME!! I didn't see what Ray suggested before, but I see it like this: Every race or two one random podium IT car is fully inspected. Obviously we would have to check out costs - even if it was just one car per calander year, it could certainly go a LONG way as a deterent. The way I see it, there is currently NO deterent to cheating regionally, because getting caught is not an issue.

Greg Amy
05-21-2004, 10:40 PM
My 2 cents after doing this for about 20 years:

- Self-policing doesn't work.

First, no club racer wants to risk the bond unless there's a nearly-guaranteed return. The only possible return for that risk is the possibility of catching someone cheating; in a lot of cases (certainly Club Racing) it's not worth the risk.

Second, it really takes bad blood in order to protest someone. That bad blood could be there in advance; if not it will certainly be there afterwards. Thus, unless you really dislike - or want to dislike - someone it's unlikely you'll protest. There's just no incentive to, as most people would rather accept the cheating than cause ill feelings among competitors.

Third, proof that self-policing doesn't work is why there are mandatory tear-downs at major events (e.g., ARRC, Runoffs). After all, if self-policing worked, we wouldn't need those tear-downs, would we, we'd just rely on the other competitors to protest.

- It takes a special event - and Supps mandate - to warrant having the tech crew pull a car down. These tech folks are volunteers, and for the most part sociable human animals (there ARE exceptions), so they have no motivation to take up THEIR time to pull a car down; after all, there's beer to be had. Same as above, too: Stewards and scru crew have no desire to create bad blood. With the mandated tear-downs in the supps then everyone can point to those rules-in-the-sky makers as the fall guy, shrugging their shoulders and saying, "Hey, man, gotta do it..."

- When there is a special event, and the supps require a tear-down, THERE IS NO BOND. The financial risk is taken by the guys that place well, and they understand this in advance as a price of victory. They'll have to pay the costs and do their own tear-downs; SCCA does NOT reimburse anyone for tear-downs at such events (ask me, I know: I've taken my Showroom Stock car home literally in separate boxes after the Runoffs).

- Everyone wants the OTHER guy torn-down, but no one wants to GET torn down. Hey, it's a great idea, but Not In My Back Yard. Problem is, we don't draw straws for this. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and deep down none of us really want to take the risk of getting picked.

The bottom line of all this is that there's very little incentive to protest someone, regardless of how bad you think they're cheating, thus there's very little DISINCENTIVE to cheat. On top of that, while everyone crows about "hey, it's just a plaque", well that don't fly, Homey: we're here to race, not toodle around in single file, so there's a very big incentive to cheat, from "fudging" all the way to outright bombs-away cheating.

What it comes down to is that our system is relying on our honesty. As in all things human, some choose to abuse that trust.

One thing that does fly well was alluded to earlier: peer pressure and shame. While I've seen some competitors over the years revel in their infamy, most want their peers to accept them as a legitimate winner. So, if one can peer pressure others into compliance, it's a win-win. Some good ideas that have worked include "interventions" where competitors go to someone in the paddock and demand compliance, other good ideas include open-hood policies after sessions so everyone can get a look. Sure, you can't spot a camshaft in an open hood, but it's fun to watch and see who's nervous about having others looking and who's not. Besides, if you're willing to toss in a camshaft, you're probably slipping in other things, too.

Nothing's going to change until everyone has an incentive to change. We need incentives to play legal, and incentives to protest, and incentives for the scru crew to look closely and take people down for it. Find those incentives and you've got your winner...

ITSRX7
05-21-2004, 11:00 PM
Greg,

Well written. I have always been on the "if you think someone is cheating, then protest them" side of the fence. You have moved me over.

On the bad blood thing: while I agree that there will be bad blood, I find that funny. I would welcome a protest - it's sort of an honor that someone thinks your set-up is so fast it's illegal - and when found legal, you are eliminate 100% of the whispering and get put together at no cost.

I guess I agree that we need more proactivity. Let's brainstorm some ideas here so we can request our local Comp Boards for future random class checks.

What would ya'll like to get checked? Min weight? Gasoline type? What else?

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Geo
05-22-2004, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by racer14itc:
The bottom line is that we race for a trophy and there isn't a lot of money on the line, so anyone who feels the need to cheat to win a $10 chunk of wood is a loser. Period.

Amen to that. Cheaters suck.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
05-22-2004, 12:36 AM
I like the open hood policy. As Greg said, if someone is tossing in a cam, they are probably doing other things.

As for what to check, I like the idea of checking cams. The problem is while they are usually reasonably easy to pull, tech crews don't have the tools and known legal samples to prove legality/illegality. Just checking lift and duration doesn't cut it. Also, checking lift on a cam with hydraulic lash adjusters is tricky to get right.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Jake
05-22-2004, 08:40 AM
I just thought of a worthless item. Mod ECU's became legal because they were "impossible" to police. Is it my imagination, or does EVERY modded ECU increase the rev limit? Isn't the rev limit one of the EASIEST things to check?

--edit for typing quick (read what I meant not what I wrote!)

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited May 22, 2004).]

ITSRX7
05-22-2004, 09:05 AM
When did modded ECU's become illegal? The internals of the brain, in the stock box, are essentially free.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Greg Amy
05-22-2004, 09:25 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">What would ya'll like to get checked?</font>

Assuming PCAs get approved: chassis dyno the winners after the race and publish the information like we do sound readings. Keep in mind what I said about incentives.

When the ITAC and Comp Board recommend a car for classification, it's with some reasonable assumptions about performance potential with allowed IT mods. Let's say, for example, that when the ITAC classified the NX2000 in ITA they expected the stock 140 crank hp of the Nissan NX2000 to go up 15% and set the racing weight at 2515 pounds. In general, we also expect a drivetrain loss of 15% on the chassis dyno.

So Greg's NX2000 shows up and BLOWS away the competition consistently. Each time he's dyno'd at 170hp at the wheels. "Hmmmm," says the ITAC, "this is a hell of a lot more than we expected. Greg keeps telling us he's legal. You know what, we screwed up: let's add 100 pounds to the Nissan NX2000 for 2006, pending lack of proof from someone that he's cheating."

THERE'S your disincentive to cheat, and your incentive to protest. If you have the power of PCAs in your pocket, you have the power to "punish" anyone that cheats in the long-term.

"But what about the NX2000 driver that's *not* cheating," you say? There's where the peer pressure comes in. I guaran-damn-tee you that other NX2000 and Sentra SE-R drivers will seek Greg out and DEMAND that he get that JWT S5 camshaft out of there, because they know that a lead trophy is on it's way. Other Nissan owners should and probably do know the capabilities of their cars, and they'll know when one of their own is cheating. If Greg refuses to comply, then other Nissan owners, who know EXACTLY what to protest, will, so they don't get penalized for Greg's actions.

To summarize, with PCAs we are creating a significant long-term DISINCENTIVE to cheat and an INCENTIVE to protest.

Short-term (race-by-race) this doesn't create a disincentive, but if Greg consistently dynos 135-140hp each event then pulls a 165hp at the NARRC Runoffs, now we've got somewhere to go with this. You'll probably see some paper fly at that point.

We demonstrated last year at LRP that portable chassis dynos are feasible and practical. The ones we used were the DynaPack type, which bolt right up to the hub; they're about the size of a large travel trunk each. I use those for tuning, and I watched the guys at the track use them on others; it takes about 15 minutes per car to get a good run and costs about $25-50 each.

Hell, charge $5 per spectator and it'll cover the weekend (just kidding.)

Remember, when you're thinking of ideas, think long-term. That's where the answers are.

Greg

gran racing
05-22-2004, 09:57 AM
This is great! I wasn't sure how well taken this post was going to be...

Greg - I like your ideas. Dyno several of the cars after the event and do not just limit it to the top three. Maybe do the top three and some ramdom ones in the top 1/2 of the field. There are several benefits to doing this.

Open the hood - pull people into impound and let everyone have a look for 1/2 hour. It wouldn't cost the regions anything to do this (or very, very little). And it would be a great opportunity for the field to socialize.

Weight - definately. But again, not just for the top three cars.

As for what gets checked - I personally am not concerned with some of what I call minor violations. Like what? Missing horn, missing washer fluid bottle...stuff like this that will not effect the performance of the vehicle. Again, not sure how practicle but: check the cam one time, compression, pistons, flywheel.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

paulydee
05-22-2004, 10:02 AM
Most of my opinions have already been stated above. At my stage of the game (second year racing), protesting cheaters is the last thing on my mind. I focus all my efforts on my driving and getting better at racing.

And since there a $10 piece of wood at stake, why spend money and time on calling someone out. Do I really care if a competitors windshield washer bottle is missing, do I care if someones dash is mutilated to fit aftermarket gauges? Not really.

I suppose at the front of the grid there is more reason to route out cheaters.

Another thing I am a big fan of is the above mentioned open hood policy. I have nothing to hide so come on over. Maybe someone could suggest something to make my car better for all I know.

In the past I have seen and heard cases of ITS RX-7s built by Speedsource that are always under wraps, and no one is allowed to look at them. The excuse is that the setup is proprietery information or what ever.

I am not saying that those people are cheating, but it does promote suspicion from fellow competitors. The whole protest process seems like a pain in the ass. Also in some cases mentioned above, getting the car in compliance would be a major expense in some cases. So then those people won't be able to race which reduces entrys and the fields start looking like GT grids at regional races.

If we could all be one happy family and build each others trust and confidence in one another, the the protest process would not even be needed.

Pauly D

Geo
05-22-2004, 10:31 AM
I'm against the chassis dyno idea. I'd go race somewhere else. First of all, big numbers doesn't mean someone is cheating. Second of all, it's nobody else's damned business what hp my car is putting down. Go mind your own business.

My God, this is regional racing. Cheaters suck, but before we start making lots of demands on officials, consider the fallout. Are we going to lose officials because of all the extra work? All for volunteers?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
05-22-2004, 10:56 AM
...Go mind your own business...


I thought cheating was our business, George..?

If you - George - have no clue what horsepower cars are making with IT mods, how can you - as an ITAC member - possibly do your job as an overseer of PCAs? Are you telling me it's no business of the ITAC (or the Comp Board) to become aware that some cars are getting as much as 30% improvements in horsepower with legal (or illegal) IT mods? You're telling me this isn't relevant to your responsibilities?

And, when did horsepower numbers become confidential or even a competitive advantage? How does my knowledge of your horsepower affect your advantage (or disadvantage) in any way?

Hell, why don't we make lap times confidential as well?

I firmly disagree with you on this point, George. It is our (your) business. How they got there - as long as they're legal - is not my business, but horsepower numbers are not confidential. In fact, they are direct correlative evidence to the possibility of cheating and/or the need for a PCA.

I sincerely hope this mindset is not pervasive among your ITAC and Comp Board peers...

(edit: minor typo.)

[This message has been edited by grega (edited May 22, 2004).]

Greg Amy
05-22-2004, 11:54 AM
I'm working in the yard, thinking about George's reaction to publicizing horsepower numbers. His is a common reaction, actually, as any time someone hears about hp numbers it's in "whisper mode", and any time some one has confided in me it's prefaced with "I'd appreciate it if you would keep this to yourself, but..."

So, why is that? How is it that the actual number is something folks want to keep to themselves? After all, my knowledge or lack of knowledge of the pull number has absolutely no realistic affect on the results of the car.

Then it hit me: it's all psychological. It's a big head game.

Everyone one of us (or most of us, at least) go into this racing thing expecting we're good drivers. Regardless of our expectations, we'd all, in some manner, like to believe we could jump into the Minardi and put it mid-pack or better. How many of us have looked at a back marker car and thought (I could do better than that in that car.) Even more importantly, we want our peers to believe that about us as well.

So, what we have here is a head game. Greg doesn't want George to know his horsepower numbers, because if Greg does well he doesn't want George to think it's only because he's got 20 more horsepower. On the hand, Greg also doesn't want George to know the numbers because if Greg sucks he doesn't want to look bad; he can always claim less ponies. This head game is even more pervasive in spec classes.

Well, I say: FUNK THAT! Cheating, PCAs, classifications and adjustments have absolutely ZERO to do with the psychological game, so the psycho game should not limit the technical game. I say dyno 'em, publish the numbers, and let the BS stop at the green flag. Pull down your pants, let's see what you got, and we'll settle it on the track.

Besides, I - like Andy - enjoy the game. I *want* you to know I just beat your 200hp monster with my 135hp car. When you see what I'm competing against you with, I think I have a psychological advantage to start.

I suggest (and this is not intended as a direct hammer, George) that those wishing to hold back the hp numbers may have a self-confidence problem...

GA

edit - more typos...*sigh*)


[This message has been edited by grega (edited May 22, 2004).]

05-22-2004, 12:14 PM
So your looking for ideas to get people to conform to IT rules, you guys crack me up, a smidge brutal but heres a novel idea. For starters all you honda guys can bring your rear camber back to zero like its supposed to be although IT rules say you can adjust while not giving the same to the rest of the cars. secondly you can toss an extra engine block into you hondas spare tire well so your not 300 POUNDS LIGHTER, and while your at it, throw a little duct tape over your throttle body so your not 30 HP over the rest of the cars as well. whaa lah, nobody then will feel the need to run nitrous just to be mid pack. its your rules that is creating this problem, take away a persons hope and human nature is to regress. My answer to your problem was E Production and I feel pretty good about it, your solution is to get the rules changed.


[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 22, 2004).]

gran racing
05-22-2004, 12:19 PM
Pauly, I said I do NOT care about washer fluid bottles and silly stuff like that. That doesn't bother me.

And this is my second season racing as well. Don't care how I do? If a person doesn't care how they do, then why race competively. I instuct HPDEs and get free track time by doing it. But you know what, I want to race. It doesn't matter if I am racing for 1st place or having a battle for 20th place, I still want to pass the car in front of me.

And if you don't cheat and don't care if others are, they you are raising the bar on performance levels in your class. If you look at a car that has the potential of reaching 140 HP fully developed legally; then because you don't care very much if a person cheats and are racing against that same car which now has 160 HP being illegal.

Sharing HP numbers - I have to say I am a bit surprised to hear that response. I would never have a problem showing someone my HP numbers. Why in the world would I?

One of the top ITA drivers on the east coast has been very open about his HP / torque numbers. How you get there is a completely different story.

Consider the fallout of catching cheaters and creating an environment where people are less tempted to cheat? Oh, that sounds horrible! IT and SCCA would probably just drop off the face of the earth. You have to be kidding, tell me you are, please. Have you considered the fallout of not controling illegal cars? I have spoken with numerous drivers that have left IT or other racing classes because cheating is not well enforced. Have you considered that some people never get involved racing certain classes / organizations because of the cheating and lack of policing?

The excuse that this is "just" regional racing is very, very weak. The idea here is to come up with methods not to make bad for officials and other volunteers. We would be more than happy to hear you ideas on how to improve upon the current process.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

gran racing
05-22-2004, 12:24 PM
Note: the above HP 140 / 160 example is purely hypothetical. Not talking about any specific type of car.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

05-22-2004, 12:53 PM
[quote]Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
[B]So your looking for ideas to get people to conform to IT rules, you guys crack me up, a smidge brutal but heres a novel idea. For starters all you honda guys can bring your rear camber back to zero like its supposed to be although IT rules say you can adjust while not giving the same to the rest of the cars. secondly you can toss an extra engine block into you hondas spare tire well so your not 300 POUNDS LIGHTER, and while your at it, throw a little duct tape over your throttle body so your not 30 HP over the rest of the cars as well. whaa lah, nobody then will feel the need to run nitrous just to be mid pack. its your rules that is creating this problem, take away a persons hope and human nature is to regress. My answer to your problem was E Production and I feel pretty good about it, your solution is to get the rules changed.





Im sorry, it was rude of me not to attach a name to that post.


------------------
Daryl Brightwell
ITA RX7 #11
NORPAC
ITA RX7 #77
SOPAC

http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...m&cat=500&page= (http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=101&password=&sort=1&size=medium&cat=500&page=)

EP this summer

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 22, 2004).]

ITSRX7
05-22-2004, 01:17 PM
I, personally, would love for the top 3-5 to hop on a dyno at any random event.

Would LOVE that...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Geo
05-22-2004, 02:18 PM
First of all, as I previously stated, dyno results don't prove a bloody thing. At best they put people on a witch hunt. Will they find a witch? Perhaps occasionally, but how many people will be burned at the stake (tearing their engine down) to find the occasional witch?

Secondly, while I would probably not hesitate much to share my dyno numbers, I won't race somewhere they are required. Sorry. Greg feels the desire to not publish hp is a self-confidence thing. That has nothing to do with it. I'd be less interested in people knowing what I put down if I was at the head of the class. First I wouldn't want to be torn down on a witch hunt. Second, if I make 10 or even 20 more hp than you and you believe you've gotten all you can get from the car, that is great. Keep thinking that.

Jon Milledge reports to be able to get 183 bhp legally from a 8v 944 engine. You know what? Nobody else seems to be able to reproduce this. NOBODY. Furthermore, most people only think you can add about 15-20 hp on a 944 engine if you go crazy all out. That's 10-15 hp short of what can be achieved. So yes, it's none of your damned business how much hp I make. Go figure out for yourself what's possible and if you figure wrong, too bad for you. THAT is part of racing. (BTW, I don't have a Milledge engine cannot afford one, but the point is that sometimes much more is possible than people beleive)

If I make way more than you think possible, too damned bad. Regardless of how much or how little my engine makes, I have nothing to hide. But I damned sure don't want to be required to make it public knowledge.

Oh, and as for lap times... You can always have someone on your crew time the competition. This has always been part of racing. It is public and therefore available to those who truly wish to know it. Dyno pulls and hp are something else entirely.

The only race series that I personally know of that require a dyno pull as proof of hp are those that set weight based upon the dyno pull. That will be the next suggestion someone will make.

I'm sorry Greg, I understand your position on these issues. But you've got mine all wrong. Or you flat out discount them. That's your prerogative. My opinions and beliefs are mine. But yes, you're right, as a member of the ITAC I have to listen to the membership. I have always done that and will continue to do that. When the membership of IT decides it wants madatory dyno pulls, I'll step down from the ITAC and go to EP or perhaps start up 944 Cup in Texas as I've been asked and always refuse. But I won't stand in the way of what the membership wants if that position is clear. Even though I am a member of the ITAC, I'm entitled to my own personal opinions, just as you are. I'll step down and leave IT when I feel dramatically differently from a clear mandate from the membership at large.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited May 22, 2004).]

Geo
05-22-2004, 02:25 PM
You know, dyno pulls could also be used to justify and hide cheating. Can't make 183 bhp with your 944 engine? Cheat. Mild cam or some other cheat could get you some easy and cheap hp, and as long as you are below the "known legal level" who is going to question it?

Sorry, I just don't buy this idea.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

lateapex911
05-22-2004, 06:23 PM
Well, this is a lot of stuff, but i will add a few points.

1- Add a code of ethics. We are an honor society, but it needs to be highlighted and hammered home. The loss of hope for some competitiors does lead to desperate measures and internal justifications, but that does not condone actions that are illegal. If a code of ethics eliminates some of the borderline guys, its a good step.

2- Tolerance. Penalities for malicious cheats (cams, compression, displacement and the like) should be severe. If we lose a racer in the process, that is a shame, but i don't like beating, or even losing to illegal guys. Surprised at the 'beating' comment? Heres why..he beat someone else. Someone who tried hard, but had the integrity to do it legally. We should all be concerned no matter where we finish.

3- Dyno pulls. Sad to say, but I know of a lot of guys who would "mysteriously" 'break' or fall out to avoid a dyno pull. They DO have a number to hide that is NOT in line with their car, and they DON'T want it known for obvious resaons. Sorry, but a big number from a small engine might not be an indication of cheating, but it, with other factors might indicate further investigation. Those who got there legally will have no issues. (as long as any tear downs are handled properly)

4- Data sets. Again, one pull won't set the world on its ear, but more will add to the data set that needs to exist for proper classing. We assume the ITAC is in EXISTANCE to add reasonable expertise to the numbers...the Hp numbers, the weight numbers, and the numbers of racing, which don't always make sense. Their ON TRACK, and AT the EVENT experience is what makes the concept valuable. I submit that more numbers can only be a good thing, and the analysis of those numbers is where the magic occurs.

4- Pragmatically speaking, it would be tough to make the dyno pulls idea happen. I sure would enjoy it though!

5-The downside. It won't catch all of them, maybe not even half. In many cases different run modes could be created, but agian, doing so is more work, and some guys might just decide its not worth the bother, or the risk, and go legal.

6-Putting more roadblocks in place, and showing less tolerance will weed out many. you will never get them all, but any reduction is still a worthy goal.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Jake
05-22-2004, 08:36 PM
I have to chuckle everytime I hear the "$10 Trophy" argument. If that really rang true we wouldn't see the incredible investments that we see in IT builds, and everyone would be running long-wearing Toyo RA1's. Think about the top ITS/A cars in YOUR region. About how much $ is in each one of those cars (in order to just get that $10 trophy)

As for secret HP numbers, that's rediculous. If I figured out how to build a 160HP legal MR2 motor, guess what - I'd want to tell the whole world!! Heck, I could probably fund my IT carreer selling the things!

Dick Elliott
05-23-2004, 12:25 AM
There has always been cheating! There will always be cheating! There will always be people who will cheat even if it cost them HP! SCCA-NASA-NHRA-NASCAR-IMSA-ETC-ETC all have people who are cheating at one time or other. You can not stop it. You can only slow it down a little. Look at the Monday morning report from NASCAR about who is being fined for yesterdays race. Run what you brung is the only way to stop cheaters. My 2 cents worth.

05-23-2004, 12:31 AM
Dick, lol, that'll shake em up, lol. really guys, fix the archaic rules and youll lesson it.


D Brightwell
EP rx7 with a bridgeport and a holly 750
ACME PN#HLLY-RX-12A-750
http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...&cat=500&page=4 (http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=301&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=4)



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 23, 2004).]

Geo
05-23-2004, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
3- Dyno pulls. Sad to say, but I know of a lot of guys who would "mysteriously" 'break' or fall out to avoid a dyno pull. They DO have a number to hide that is NOT in line with their car, and they DON'T want it known for obvious resaons.

But not everyone who doesn't want their hp know is cheating or lacks self confidence.


Originally posted by lateapex911:
Sorry, but a big number from a small engine might not be an indication of cheating, but it, with other factors might indicate further investigation. Those who got there legally will have no issues. (as long as any tear downs are handled properly)

Yep. If they die in the the fire, or drown in the dunking seat, they must not have been a witch. Next!


Originally posted by lateapex911:
4- Data sets. Again, one pull won't set the world on its ear, but more will add to the data set that needs to exist for proper classing. We assume the ITAC is in EXISTANCE to add reasonable expertise to the numbers...the Hp numbers, the weight numbers, and the numbers of racing, which don't always make sense. Their ON TRACK, and AT the EVENT experience is what makes the concept valuable. I submit that more numbers can only be a good thing, and the analysis of those numbers is where the magic occurs.

One other fallout of doing dyno runs will be justifications for full wacko comp adjustments. "Oh, so and so makes 5 more hp. The weight of all those cars needs to be adjusted."

Thanks, but I think I'd go elsewhere. Hell, I'd even race in a spec class and I have no interest in them.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

05-23-2004, 01:58 PM
George "Yep. If they die in the the fire, or drown in the dunking seat, they must not have been a witch. Next!"

lol, this isnt my nose, really.

lateapex911
05-23-2004, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
One other fallout of doing dyno runs will be justifications for full wacko comp adjustments. "Oh, so and so makes 5 more hp. The weight of all those cars needs to be adjusted."

Thanks, but I think I'd go elsewhere. Hell, I'd even race in a spec class and I have no interest in them.




George, it is interesting that you say that...as my point was that one benefit would be that you, and your brethren on the ITAC would have more data, real data, to utilize. If the data sets for a certain car in a certain class show a range, it can be useful to you. And if a number falls well outside that range, on the high side, it could indicate something amiss.

To someone at the location, who has seen that particular cars behavior and know the history, it might indicate the result of good development work, or something afoul of the rules. It doesn't mean the car is illegal, bt it can be a fator in making the decision to investigate further.

If a teardown proves the car is legal, no foul, we now have a new point in the data set, and a solid legitimate one at that.

The comparison to a witch hunt is not appropriate here. Nobody is being drowned because they are suspected of foul play.

I see the concept as a real boon to classing and a nice way to keep the temptation to pull a fast one down.

It'll never happen, but I would support it if I had the chance.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

lateapex911
05-23-2004, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by Dick Elliott:
There has always been cheating! There will always be cheating! There will always be people who will cheat even if it cost them HP! SCCA-NASA-NHRA-NASCAR-IMSA-ETC-ETC all have people who are cheating at one time or other. You can not stop it. You can only slow it down a little. Look at the Monday morning report from NASCAR about who is being fined for yesterdays race. Run what you brung is the only way to stop cheaters. My 2 cents worth.

And my two cents is that malicious cheating is not acceptable.

Don't cite NASCAR as support for your statement, as it has NOTHING to do with us! We are are a member driven organization, NOT a professional group who's job it is to push as far as the sanctioning bodies inspectors will let us!

WE are the inspectors!!

With the current rules based system in place (not run what you brung, what a spend fest that would be!) we can expect that we respect each other and run clean.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Dick Elliott
05-23-2004, 08:12 PM
No where in my post did I say SCCA should do anything. All I stated was what would stop cheating in any group. Run what you brung is the most non protest rules I know of. If you dont like the cheaters in IT go run GT. I did and I never again had to worry if my washer bottle was full. You come from the group that states," he/she must be cheating because they out ran me"

05-23-2004, 08:50 PM
Im seeing a trend here, 10 people, 8 discussing how to fix a problem, 2 that have already found the solution, guys, "Intent" not only breeds the virus, it says its ok because you were never given any garrantee of competitiveness from the start.

lateapex911
05-23-2004, 08:59 PM
Daryl, you haven't "solved the problem" you have merely changed your staus, and left the problem behind. That is not fixing it.

Look, not many of us have issues with washer bottles...I have issues with guys who have gone EP, but they still race in ITA.

Why is it so bad to have issues with that???

(And regarding the comment about the only way to stop cheating is to adopt a run what you brung class, well yes, obviously its hard to cheat when there are no rules, but is that really relevant?)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 23, 2004).]

JeffYoung
05-23-2004, 09:02 PM
Do you guys regularly see any blatant cheating? I don't here in the Southeast, maybe I'm missing it. Not cars obviously faster than they should be, etc. I'm pretty pleased actually, I think this group runs pretty square.

You get the impression sometimes from this forum that half the cars out there are illegal. In reality, to me anyway, I would guess about 1-2% are substantively illegal, by which I mean something seriously done to increase performance (cam, porting, etc.).

apr67
05-23-2004, 10:49 PM
I did not indicate that we should charge all classes $ to tech IT. I suggested a small fee (a dollar?) be collected at every (for example) SARRC points race. Then that money could be used for getting the right tech people and tools to tech stuff (to be determined) at the bigger race (such as the SARRC Invitational).

05-23-2004, 11:50 PM
Jake I fought the good fight, I called chief tech and asst tech at home and left a detailed message on how I would supply all the gaskets necessary to tear down all the rotarys and check ports and intakes, niether would return my repeated calls, pointed it out the same at the track and was told I was a trouble maker, f- that, came here and bitched and was told I just sucked as a driver and like the above poster "its only a small percentage", well if that 2 percent is on the podium where in the hell does that leave you? tech dosnt care about IT because there are no garrantees of competitiveness anyway and they will be the first to tell you maybe you shouldnt have brought a knife to a gunfight, end of story. change the rules.



[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited May 24, 2004).]

Geo
05-24-2004, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
To someone at the location, who has seen that particular cars behavior and know the history, it might indicate the result of good development work, or something afoul of the rules. It doesn't mean the car is illegal, bt it can be a fator in making the decision to investigate further.

If a teardown proves the car is legal, no foul

Except for the poor bastard to just had his sweet engine torn down. Sorry, but I don't buy it.

I can live with group teardowns, protests, teardown by lottery, and probably a few others, but mandatory dyno testing is something I will never accept. If I have to race somewhere else, so be it. I see a lot of heartache in the long run, including full competition adjustments to follow.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

05-24-2004, 02:20 AM
You would go to another org before anyone sees your dyno numbers? you sound like you have something worth hiding george, your just trying to get someone to pay to fix those nasty oil leaks the germans learned from the english, both payback for conquest by the way.

JeffYoung
05-24-2004, 02:25 AM
7's, chill man. It's CLUB racing. We do it for FUN. Yeah, it costs a lot and takes a lot of time and cheaters suck. But I just do't see such rampant cheating here in the SEDiv (or suspect it) such that I feel like anything drastic is necessary. Not saying your driving sucks, not saying anything at all really other than I doubt more than a small, small percentage are cheating and I even more highly doubt they are anywhere near the podium.

gran racing
05-24-2004, 09:25 AM
Basically what I am trying to say is this:

Cheating happens and always will. But there are ways to reduce the temptation to cheat. And they do not have to be drastic ones, but the ones that are currently in place need to be enhanced.

Hoods up and the possibility of an full inspection would be great. (other then by a fellow racer protesting) I spoke with Ray more about his class policing the field. Great idea! But a key to why it has been successful is that it is a group of people working together to monitor the classes legality. Not just one person by themselves. It really takes the pressure and stress away from being that one evil person.

I am not saying there is rampant cheating amoung everyone. But yes, I do know it is happening. A small percentage? Hopefully. But what if that small percentage is the people in front of you? - (By no means am I saying this is the case! Just a retorical question)

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

gran racing
05-24-2004, 09:30 AM
Basically what I am trying to say is this:

Cheating happens and always will. But there are ways to reduce the temptation to cheat. And they do not have to be drastic ones, but the ones that are currently in place need to be enhanced.

Hoods up and the possibility of an full inspection would be great. (other then by a fellow racer protesting) I spoke with Ray more about his class policing the field. Great idea! But a key to why it has been successful is that it is a group of people working together to monitor the classes legality. Not just one person by themselves. It really takes the pressure and stress away from being that one evil person.

I am not saying there is rampant cheating amoung everyone. But yes, I do know it is happening. A small percentage? Hopefully. But what if that small percentage is the people in front of you? - (By no means am I saying this is the case! Just a retorical question)

Maybe all it would take is to make everyone better educated about the protest process. Have a "protest" guidlines sheet (more info. then what is in the GCR). Like a tip / how to do properly. How much it would cost approximately for certain items. How much would this cost to do? Not much. Would this be too disruptive? I can't believe it would be but am sure someone will say why bother, it is perfectly spelled out in the GCR.

What do you think the reaction would be if this were handed out to every person in the registration line and told that there will be a manditory impound after their race? Probably similar to what Wayne's story on the other impound post would be.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

05-24-2004, 10:41 AM
Im not saying any of you particular guys said my driving sucked which im sure truly could be proven since my engines keep seizing up but in the past when this forum discussed prospective changes in the intent rules it was divided by those with class overdogs and the rest of us with the overdogs claiming its not the cars or the rules but the drivers that was to blame, in a club where a vote is needed to change its going to be partison along these lines.

Geo
05-24-2004, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
You would go to another org before anyone sees your dyno numbers?

Another org? Probably not. I'd probably move to Production, although it is possible I'd set up 944 Cup in Texas instead, but I really have little interest in spec or single make racing.


Originally posted by 7'sRracing:
you sound like you have something worth hiding george, your just trying to get someone to pay to fix those nasty oil leaks the germans learned from the english, both payback for conquest by the way.

LOL! No, the Germans got the ideas for oil leaks from the Brits, but the Brit oil leaks are simple. The Germans, true to form, have to make very complicated oil leaks. Furthermore you must tear down almost the entire engine and have a tool box full of special tools just to fix the leaks. And again, remembering it's German, if the seals/gaskets are installed a tenth of a millimeter off, it will leak again.

I assure you I have nothing to hide, except said oil leaks. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
05-24-2004, 11:31 AM
George, that's the third time you've threatened to quit racing SCCA if we start dyno testing cars. Stop being so childish; do you REALLY think we'll all change our positions just to keep you in SCCA racing? I know you have a damn-near stock car, but the protests are a bit much, "methinks."

Dyno testing is yet another performance data point, just like lap times and race results. It's a data point that can be used for multiple things (just like lap times): classifications, weight adjustments/PCAs, reclassifications, and, yes, even references for protest decision (just like - HORRORS! - lap times and results).

Yet, unlike race results and lap times, it's unique in that it completely isolates the car away from the driver, and away from the track. There's no way that Bob Stretch or Randy Pobst is going to be able to finesse or drive a better dyno pull than Dave Gran in the same car, and a dyno test at Laguna Seca is not going to be significantly different than one done at Lime Rock to the same car (corrected for environmental conditions). You want a way to properly adjust VEHICLE classification, independant of driver and track? You got a better idea than this?

It's not a witch hunt, either; if someone's willing to pull down a car on dyno results, they're already thinking about pulling it down for race results. See my discussion near the top here in regards to bad blood. And, if I do get pulled apart, somehow I'm OK with it if it's done due to race results, but I'm pissed off because it came as a result of a dyno test? Wha...???

Dyno testing works. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I like it. And it's not without precedence in the SCCA, either.

Just another data point, my friends, one that I'll volunteer to offer at the next event possible.

Racerwrtr
05-24-2004, 11:37 AM
Okay, then here is an idea. It may seem a bit idealistic, but I am sure there are many of you who will point that out.

As we all agree that it is a small number of people who are cheating (or "creatively preparing" their cars), and as each car type is different (and has its own ways to cheat) and as we are all supposed to be honest and moral people who are doing this for FUN, how about setting aside a half hour at every race meeting (maybe during lunch) where all the drivers of each type of car (VW, BMW, Nissan, Neon, RX7, etc) get together and go from car to car and look them over. Not take anything apart, just look under the hood and at the suspension and ask questions and compare notes. If the group finds anything, they can all talk about it and if it was a mistake on the part of the owner they can suggest how to fix it. If it was a cheat, they can suggest it be redone by the next weekend. It''s called peer pressure. Anyone whose car passes this review by committee could get a sticker or something to place on their car ("Check Me!" or something like that). Maybe we could get someone to print up a pile of stickers as a donation to the cause. Anyway, the idea would be if you didn't want to have a bunch of fellow competitors look closely at your car, the implication would be that you must have something to hide. People could wear their stickers with pride. Okay, it won't clear up people with illegal cams and combustion chambers and porting etc, ad nauseum, but it might get people to think about what they are doing and why they are doing it and it might reduce honest mistakes in preparation from people who don't know that they aren't supposed to.

Obviously, people who aren't running a popular type of car are going to feel a bit lonely in this process, but then they proabaly do already...

If this became a national movement, maybe we would end up policing ourselves without expecting "Big Brother" to do it for us.

Comments?

Kevin
VW GTi

Geo
05-24-2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by grega:
George, that's the third time you've threatened to quit racing SCCA if we start dyno testing cars. Stop being so childish; do you REALLY think we'll all change our positions just to keep you in SCCA racing?

Childish? You're too funny. Where do you come up with shit like this? Or more importantly, why?

First of all I only mentioned leaving IT. I'd probably just move to Production. I could form 944 Cup in Texas, but probably wouldn't because spec and one make racing doesn't interest me much - I've said this many times.

Secondly, I don't expect anyone to do anything to keep me around. I've already said if the membership wants to go that way I'll step down from the ITAC and move on. I don't see anything childish there.


Originally posted by grega:
I know you have a damn-near stock car, but the protests are a bit much, "methinks."

Really? You have first-hand knowledge of my car? I think not. Besides, what does this have to do with anything?


Originally posted by grega:
It's not a witch hunt, either

Oh it would be.

I can see people arguing for full production style comp adjustments due to the results.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited May 24, 2004).]

RR
05-24-2004, 12:22 PM
Jeez guys....this is turning down right nasty. Lets face the facts, the Tech guys are pressed for time and can barely check car weights when we come off the track. This idea of dynoing or tearing down heads will NEVER happen. You think Im going to hang out after a regional race and have my head removed!@#@!??, and trust someone to put it all back...thats crap. If someone is far fast on the straights, everyone in the class should get together and protest....end of story. It has happened here in the NE and it worked. Dont waste your breath thinking some teck guys will be removing cams and micing them.

paulydee
05-24-2004, 01:33 PM
I fully support what Kevin suggested above. Everyone should be able to look at everyone elses car and make SUGGESTIONS as to what may or may not be legal. It goes back to the honor system, and we are supposed to be having fun. I realize there will always be someone who will spend every last nickle and possibly cheat to win. For me at this stage of the game (Regional racing), I am in it for the racing experience, not the results. If I wanted to race like a professional and demand winning results, then I would go National and get into E-Prod.

Pauly D

[This message has been edited by paulydee (edited May 24, 2004).]

gran racing
05-24-2004, 02:52 PM
Firstly, I realize that some of the things are not realistic. The attitude here should be what can we do versus the BS - ah, we can't do that! Yes, I know we can't have tech inspectors taking apart engines till midnight after the race. That would stink for all involved. But more could be done then currently exists!

The idea Kevin, Ray and others suggested is great. The sticker idea is cool as well. Power in numbers - isn't that the point of this discussion?

And mention leaving the board? Ummm. O.k. For you to mention or "threaten" that is pretty funny. Especially when it is simply a thread on the IT board. What is the ITAC? I thought it was part of the competition board. I wouldn't imagine that anyone on the competition board would fight against ensuring cars are legal.

What cracks me up even more is that many complain about a car being adjusted or reclassified that is very similar performance wise. Yet some of them don't care if another person is illegally getting an extra 15 HP? No one here (to my knowledge) has said this outright, but this attitude does exist.

As for the dyno - I certainly wouldn't mind if someone dyno-ed my car. That would be so great; I could make changes from race to race and see what the results are without going to a dyno shop. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Geo
05-24-2004, 08:16 PM
First of all I want to apologize to Greg Amy and to the readers here. It's obvious Greg an I have been getting a little personal here and it surprised me because Greg and I have been friends and raced in an enduro together (OK, the car was handed to me broken and I did one lap, but that's not the point.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ).

Greg and I have spoken off-line and I have a little more reading to do here, but....


Originally posted by Geo:
I'm against the chassis dyno idea. I'd go race somewhere else. First of all, big numbers doesn't mean someone is cheating. Second of all, it's nobody else's damned business what hp my car is putting down. Go mind your own business.

My God, this is regional racing.

I didn't think anything of saying "Go mind your own business" because it was not directed to Greg or any person in particular. Looking back, I can see where this could be seen as personal and quite rude.

Greg, I'm sorry. It never occured to me because it was the last thing on my mind that I mean you or anyone here, but more people in general.

I have some more rereading to do here, but the above was certainly not the best thing I could have said and certainly could be taken as an attack.

So, my motto is, do wrong in public, apologize in public. I also apologize to the readers here for what I may have inadvertantly started.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

05-24-2004, 09:42 PM
its not your fault, its that Grattenberg tea, out here we just call it buyers remorse http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

emwavey
05-26-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by grega:
...One thing that does fly well was alluded to earlier: peer pressure and shame. While I've seen some competitors over the years revel in their infamy, most want their peers to accept them as a legitimate winner. So, if one can peer pressure others into compliance, it's a win-win. Some good ideas that have worked include "interventions" where competitors go to someone in the paddock and demand compliance, other good ideas include open-hood policies after sessions so everyone can get a look. Sure, you can't spot a camshaft in an open hood, but it's fun to watch and see who's nervous about having others looking and who's not. Besides, if you're willing to toss in a camshaft, you're probably slipping in other things, too...

Funny as I started reading the thread the same thought occured to me... shame.
We could hire Terry Jones of Monty Python fame to come in dressed up as Brian's Mom... If caught Terry can read over the loud speaker such-and-such "... has been a naughty, naughty boy..."

SilverHorseRacing
05-26-2004, 07:16 PM
While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules. It IS their responsibility to file a protest, but at that point, it is an IMPARTIAL third party's responsibility to determine legality. Second, let's say I have the fastest widget ring in my exhaust that makes your muffler bearing obsolete, and is totally legal. I really am not going to want to tell you how to install it, where to get it, and all that. But if you're going over my car with a fine-tooth comb, you might just figure out how to do it, and next weekend, you've got one too.

How do you think I learned a bunch of my tricks? I looked at other people's ideas, and drew the best conclusions I could for my own car. I did this with their knowledge, and with their consent. Being forced to walk someone through my car's construction that had a vested interest in learning my secrets (if any http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ) is not exactly the brightest idea, IMHO. Of course, maybe you want to show me every little trick and every obscure part from the vehicle's spec line, so that I can go duplicate it next week. If that's the case, just show me your goods so I can copy it. Part of the fun of this sport is the creativity in development of the car. If I want my car to look like everyone else's, I'll go buy a spec miata.



------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com (http://www.SilverHorseRacing.com)

lateapex911
05-26-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by SilverHorseRacing:
While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules..... <snip>



I understand your point completely. But I think Greg was suggesting more of a "heads up" pow wow.

Bob over there with the ITC car is turning laps faster than most fast ITA cars...and he's in a car that a lot of folks have raced over the years. Seems unusual, esp. as Bob has had the same car for years and suddenly is 2 seconds a lap faster. So a group decides to have a chat, and see if they can discover the reason. Maybe Bob is on the new trick Avon tires that nobody knows about...or maybe he has something else that can explain it. Or maybe not, and Bob makes a note to himself, goes home and puts the stock displacement engine with the right throttle body, and the right cam, and the right compression back in the car. And next week he's back to normal, or closer to legal. (don't laugh at the above scenario, I know too much not to believe such things have and do happen)

If not, then it is up to the group whether to write paper. Maybe Bob has a trick widget that explains it, and is completely legal. Impartial tech folk look at it, and pronounce it clean and legal. His secret is safe, and his times are to be admired. He might be upset at the teardown, but smuggly proud at the same time.

I see the "intervention" idea as a nice first step, to help avoid the ugliness of a protest, and if the result is the same, then its all cool, right?

Actually a personal "oh, by the way..you seem awfully fast" comment can go a long way before an "intervention" is even required.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

gran racing
05-26-2004, 08:41 PM
The open hood idea is a nice gesture, but I'm not so sure if legality can be determined by that. The first few times it happens, it might shake things up a bit. In the long run though, I am not sure that it would solve some of the illegal cars. Those people would gain a comfort level knowing that without a tear down, their car is safe.

I still like the "community" approach to people that are suspected of cheating.

Hey, I have an idea. Make the person you suspect of cheating drink a 12 pack of beer then ask him/her if they are cheating. O.k. So this idea won't fly but it just might work!

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

SilverHorseRacing
05-27-2004, 12:02 AM
I have no problem with the community or individual approach. I've gone right up to people I either have suspected or factually known were not in compliance, and talked about it directly with them. Normally, this fixes the problem, and we move on. Sometimes, they don't even know they are outside the rules, or sometimes they think nobody cares. In either case, I would never write paper until I went to them first. And yes, I think you're a jerk if you would write paper without going to the offender first, since everyone makes mistakes.

What I was having a problem with is when it is mandated that a group go over someone else's car. That just doesn't sit well with me, no matter how innocent the intention, the end result would be a witch hunt, with nobody winning, and the club as a whole losing.

The current system works well enough, and given the amount of time we already don't have during a weekend, I doubt we could muster much more scrutiny than we do now. Is it just me, or does anyone else have things they need to do besides crawl under someone else's car?

------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com (http://www.SilverHorseRacing.com)

ITSRX7
05-27-2004, 12:38 AM
I still fail to see any issues with people going in, around and under a legal car.

It's done in Solo all the time and it keeps the perception of cheating down to a minimum. You will never catch the internal stuff without a teardown. Witch-hunt? I doubt it. If anything, it clear the air when your car looks like the next one - or has all legal stuff on the outside.

Look me over, ask me questions. The fact you think I am cheating is the ultimate compliment to my driving and my preparation.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

05-27-2004, 01:04 AM
"The fact you think I am cheating is the ultimate compliment to my driving and my preparation.

AB"


well put, if your legal your waving people over to check your ride, the reason I put such attention to detail on my cars is for others eye candy.

Geo
05-27-2004, 04:10 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Bob over there with the ITC car is turning laps faster than most fast ITA cars...and he's in a car that a lot of folks have raced over the years. Seems unusual, esp. as Bob has had the same car for years and suddenly is 2 seconds a lap faster. So a group decides to have a chat, and see if they can discover the reason. Maybe Bob is on the new trick Avon tires that nobody knows about...or maybe he has something else that can explain it.

Enzyte


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

gran racing
05-27-2004, 08:30 AM
Marcello,
A jerk to fill out paper? I guess we need to clarify how you are approaching this subject. We're not talking about some of the minor things that may give a slight advantage. The bigger stuff that the person knows that they are cheating by doing. Cams, lightened fly wheel, very high compression.

I would agree with you about filling out paper work because your wheel extends 1/4" out too far, missing your horn, the ballast is located 6" to far to the rear, ect. No huge performance gain and like you said, there may not be intent here. I honestly wouldn't care about any of that stuff.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

OTLimit
05-27-2004, 10:10 AM
Originally posted by SilverHorseRacing:
While I'm not against casual looks at my car, and openly will show people who come and ask nicely, I do have a problem with "grading by peers". For one thing, it's not up to my competition to determine my car's conformity to the rules. It IS their responsibility to file a protest, but at that point, it is an IMPARTIAL third party's responsibility to determine legality.

The only problem I have with this is that most of our impartial third parties don't have a real clue.

Just as a test, at your next race casually check out your stewards, and whether or not you trust them to correctly cc a motor with what equipment they have at the track.

------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

Geo
05-27-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I still fail to see any issues with people going in, around and under a legal car.

I think the point Marcello was trying to point out was "theft" of ideas. Seeing someone's better solution. Or seeing something that is radically different, but totally legal that sends you hope scratching your head trying to figure it out.

I can understand his point. I'm not totally in agreement with it, but I am somewhat. And I'm not a secretive type. If someone asks what I've done, I'll tell them, sometimes too much and in too much detail - especially to someone with the same car. But it's a different deal when you are forced to show everyone what you've done (even legally).



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

racerdave600
05-27-2004, 07:21 PM
Back in our Nascar days, the officials would travel to the track with a portable dyno, and as you came off, they could confiscate your car for a dyno run. They usually always picked one of the 3 makes, and not always the top finishers, but that was usually the case. Other than the crew helping "load" the car, no one was allowed to see the results. They were "classified" not only to you, but also to your competitors. Generally you could find out how far "off" you were, but that's about it. Never the actual numbers. It seemed fair, and no one complained. The theory was, if you wanted actual numbers, dyno it yourself. They were only looking at keeping it all fairly even, and monitoring what was going on. Once a motor was spec'd, no matter what you did, you could only get so much power legally, and they knew it.

As for cheating, I had this very discussion with our region's RE just last week. He's also the head of tech at Road Atlanta, and expressed interest in catching more people, but commented that not all tracks have the knowledge and manpower for complete teardowns at every event, or are familiar enough with each make and model. It would more than likely take a team from Topeka that traveled to accomplish it, or more training, and more tech personnel.

On a related note, I have a friend running SSB this year. At Daytona a few weeks ago, he passed all the Hondas but one, and it was waaayyy faster than the others. Several people commented that if they knew what to protest, they would have done it a long time ago. The problem is, this driver never goes to nationals where a teardown is mandatory. Perhaps the way protests are handled needs to be looked at...although that's opening up an entirely different set of problems.

In my opinion, there's a difference between looking for the maximum out of the car in terms of set up, motor building, etc., and blatently cheating. If I had to cheat to win, I'd just as soon stay home!

I've worked on a couple of national championship cars, and they were so legal it hurt! I think most people would be suprised at how legal some of the really fast guys are.

Just my .02

Dave

Knestis
05-27-2004, 08:12 PM
A lot of bandwidth has been burned up on this topic and I've yet to see much in the way of suggestions that address the culture in which competitors essentially endorse cheating.

It WOULD be cool if someone could be paid to be "bad cop" but it's not going to happen in SCCA club racing. Never. It's just too contrary to people's expectations.

K

SilverHorseRacing
05-27-2004, 10:01 PM
George, you saw what I was trying to say exactly. I too am guilty of telling my competition way too much information about what to run, how to set it up, etc... and I openly show my car to most anyone. The problem I had was when I am forced to show my car to a bunch of people who I may or may not want to see my car.

As to others saying it wouldn't be a witch hunt, what are you really thinking? You're sending a group of people, who may or may not know what they are looking at, to go and try and find illegalities on a given car. It's kind of like inspectors and traffic cops, they only justify their existence by writing paper. I'm not saying there doesn't need to be building codes or traffic laws in school zones, but you see where I'm going. (hopefully)

Anyway, Kirk's right. Too much time on this already. I have a car to prep for the rest of this season.


------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com (http://www.SilverHorseRacing.com)

zracer22
06-03-2004, 03:09 PM
IT cheating is a topic that we all feel stongly about and almost everyone of us has something to say about it. All the talking in the world won't address the issue. Like said earlier, racing will always have cheaters. Not just in racing, but every form of cometition has it. Sammy Sosa uses cork, Ben Johnson used steriods. Some get caught and some don't.
IT racing in 2004 is much different than IT racing in 1989. The SCCA has created an atmoshere that invites cheating in IT racing. IT is no longer entry level racing. 15 years ago, people didn't "develope" IT cars. They run what they brung. Now you see IT teams with World Challenge budgets, new Hoosiers every weekend, $40,000 professionally built cars. It's no wonder that people go too far in their search for a little competitive edge. It is now the nature of the beast, and we're stuck with it. Had IT remained as originally intended, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Sure, there were IT cheaters 15 years ago, but 98% of the time they were caught. But the tide had changed. When everyone was using illegal ECU chips, the SCCA just made them legal. What a horrible position to take on cheating.

Back to the original topic: Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? There are no new methods. We should have harsh penalties and real deterrents. It will cost big $$$, but what in racing doesn't. Make it manditory that at each event, 3,4,5,? podium cars are completely inspected. If a cheat is caught suspend their license for 1 year, ban the car from racing for 1 year, and a $2500 fine that must be paid before the suspension is lifted. And publish it in Fastrack. It's foolish to think that there is a cheap and easy solution to the problem. Right now there is no incentive to NOT cheat.

Quickshoe
06-03-2004, 07:48 PM
Zracer22,

While I agree that the penalties for cheating aren't harsh enough, I hardly feel that there isn't an incentive not to cheat.

I don't cheat because of my pride and integrity.

I think that the problem with the current system is that we need to be too specific about the items being protested. However, we can't just have people being completely torn down looking for what is wrong. I don't know what the solution is...

I think it is rediculous to not weigh every car that comes off of the track. At the very least that should be done.

lateapex911
06-03-2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by zracer22:
All the talking in the world won't address the issue.

I disagree. Talking about it amongst ourselves, and broadcasting that it is not acceptable will have an effect on some folk who are borderline. Any reduction is a good reduction.
It also sets standards for new guys, who are looking to get with the program. If the program is "everybody cheats, thats just the way it is", then guess what? They will too. If they hear that it isn't acceoted and those that do are thought of as scum, then thye will most likely be clean. never underestimate the power of peers.



IT racing in 2004 is much different than IT racing in 1989. The SCCA has created an atmoshere that invites cheating in IT racing. IT is no longer entry level racing.



If IT isn't what is? IT may not be entry level winning but where else can you buy a mid pack roadrace car for four thousand dollars and race against 25 guys in your class? Nationwide?


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> 15 years ago, people didn't \"develope\" IT cars. They run what they brung. Now you see IT teams with World Challenge budgets, new Hoosiers every weekend, $40,000 professionally built cars. It's no wonder that people go too far in their search for a little competitive edge. It is now the nature of the beast, and we're stuck with it. Had IT remained as originally intended, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Sure, there were IT cheaters 15 years ago, but 98% of the time they were caught. </font>
Oh really? How were they caught?? A cam today is the same as a cam in 1990. Tell me how all these guys were caught, and we will do the same thing today.


<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Back to the original topic: Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? There are no new methods. We should have harsh penalties and real deterrents. It will cost big $$$, but what in racing doesn't. Make it manditory that at each event, 3,4,5,? podium cars are completely inspected. If a cheat is caught suspend their license for 1 year, ban the car from racing for 1 year, and a $2500 fine that must be paid before the suspension is lifted. And publish it in Fastrack. It's foolish to think that there is a cheap and easy solution to the problem. Right now there is no incentive to NOT cheat. </font>

Again, I disagree. My honesty, integrity and honor are at stake. In the end it's all you have.

I agree with your points regarding penalties and costs, but it can get pretty severe in certain cases as it is. First the net needs to actually catch fish, before we decide how hot to fry 'em.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited June 03, 2004).]

gran racing
06-03-2004, 10:07 PM
Many people have said what we can't do and the impact it will have. I guess we need to approach this in baby steps.

Talking about it really is the first step. I believe I stated this before, but how many people really understand the protest process? Heck, I've read the GCR several times and still really don't have enough understanding of it. You hear about the bond that would need to be purchased. O.k. Well, approximately how much would it cost to protest cams? I have no idea. Yeah, $100 is part of it and published in the GCR. But what are we talking about here? $500? 1,000? Really, I have no idea.

Realistically, what would it talk to write a good summary of the protest process, what steps need to be completed, advice on how to approach protests (learn as much as possible, don't make assumptions, speak with your peers)? And publish this yearly.

As a minimum, a region could publish this in their region's magazine. Knowledge is power.

To me the process is pretty intimidating.

I do really think something does need to be done about further discouraging intentional cheating.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

metalworker
06-03-2004, 11:47 PM
If you want to stop the cheating, and the bitching about the cheaters,we have got to be willing and have the ability to protest. This past weekend , to me , is a perfect example of why you can't catch the cheaters, and on the other side, stop the people bitching about the cheaters.
Driver A got his butt spanked at the last race by driver B. Driver A decides that instead of just bitching about it, he would do something. So he did his research, got the necessary info, including typical shop cost to do the inspection. At the beginning of the weekend, he made is intentions known. This could have been handled in a very gentlemenly way. Instead the steward allowed the engine builder to set bond amount. ( did I mention driver B works for said engine builder). Driver B was also allowed to leave as a result of his car breaking, therefore not allowing protest to happen even if funds could have been arranged. This matter could have been settled by the engine builder, to allow his stuff to be torn down, which may have proven how good a builder he is, or with the steward being a little more willing to do his job.
Another such thing occurred a year or so ago. A driver was too fast according to his competitors. They got their money together and protested. The protested driver then crashed into several of the guys that protested him. The stewards gave him a slap on the wrist for the driving, and threw out the mechanical protest because it was to late. I don't beleive that guy should have ever been allowed back.
Both of these cases nothing is settled. On one side, driver A still thinks driver B cheats, and on the other side driver B can continue to say that he has never been caught. Driver B will continue to get his rewards ( deserved or not, but not willing to prove it), and driver A is stuck with nothing he can do about it, except bitch which makes everybody think everybody else cheating. There is a system for solving these issues, but we must be willing to protest, we must be willing to prove ourselves legal, and the officials must be willing to allow this to happen.




[This message has been edited by metalworker (edited June 04, 2004).]

Maddog
06-04-2004, 10:14 PM
[quote]Originally posted by metalworker:
....At the beginning of the weekend, he made is intentions known.....[quote]

Did he actually file a protest or did he just talk about it? If the protest was not filed then the driver can leave when his car breaks.

metalworker
06-04-2004, 11:40 PM
The protest went far enough that the steward got involved. I'm not blaming the two drivers for what occurred. I'm not sure that I wouldn't have left also, if my car was broken. I don't know of many people that would have just hang around. It is not very much fun to just sit and watch if you were planning to be involved.

GREENLOCUST
08-31-2004, 03:33 PM
A tech or competitors can poke around all they want, mic the cams or test compression etc. But without a full tear down you cant catch lighter pistons, lightened rods, flywheels, valve train (anybody know the correct weight of a stock Jensen Healey valve keeper?) Why not use a system like NASA and base the cars on power to weight ratios? ITS say 13.1, ITA at 15.1, etc. Cars could then be adjusted with penalties and breaks for competitiveness. This could go a long way towards keeping costs down. For instance on an Miata, you could spend $1000.00 on machine work blueprinting a motor to get an extra 5hp. If you weren't restricted by rules, a $200.00 cam swap or throttle body would net the same hp. As long as your car isn't over the horsepower for your class, it's fine. Regular dyno certification and no cockpit adjustable engine management is working very well in the NASA American Iron class. America Sedan and AI cars have very similar outputs but you can put together the AI motor for much less money. And a dispute is as easy as a dyno pull.

lateapex911
08-31-2004, 07:35 PM
Originally posted by GREENLOCUST:
And a dispute is as easy as a dyno pull.

While I like the idea, I think history has shown that sandbagging can be practiced at very high (read: undetectable levels).

I have a hard time swallowing that there aren't sharp competitors who don't have a "technique" when it comes to dyno time.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

GREENLOCUST
09-01-2004, 08:55 AM
I think there could be ways of sandbagging a dyno run but it could be minimized. Maybe limit the intake tract to pulling underhood air instead of cold air under the bumper, and having any ignition boxes or aftermarket ECU mounted on the firewall instead of the cockpit. Ban cockpit adjustable timing controls and make dyno runs be made with the fuel actually raced. I could see using low octane fuel to get a knock sensor to pull timing, lowering horsepower or making their dyno runs on the hottest day of the year. I think that once people vet themselves to a class, the challenge would be not getting to close to pushing themselves up a class. It would still be easier to police. A tech can sit in a competitors seat and check for an adjustable timing control much easier than policing the current guidelines.

apr67
09-01-2004, 02:16 PM
The Nasa american iron thing would be easy to cheat on.

How about I use a ignition computer than drops power if the car is started, killed and restarted? Or imagine anything you would like.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that one reason for not cheating is because it isn't worth enough.

Beyond that. Dyno's are NOT reliable, especially initeral dyno's.

Dick Elliott
09-01-2004, 07:36 PM
The local dirt track has a 17 inch's of vacuum rule. They dont care what you do inside the motor as long as you can pull 17" of vacuum. You would be really be surprised at how little you can do and still pull 17"

wpspeedracer
09-04-2004, 09:50 AM
Fortuantely ( and unfortuantely ) cheating will always fall back to the individual and their own moral fiber...and you have only yourself to look at at the end of every race.....Does it really feel that good to win a race knowing that you cheated to do it?

I got into racing about three years ago and made the decision to get into ITS by the car I wanted to drive....unknowing the ability of that car to win. I thought this division was set up such that you could build a car within the rules and be competitive, no matter what the make and/or model....that it came down soley to the ability of the driver. ITS was inviting more because of the number of competetors in every race that intriqued me....15 - 20 cars instead of 3 to 5 like GT-1. So off I went....first by reading the GCR - ITS throughly to understand what I could and couldn't do. I rember early on those helping me modify my first ITS car that I had purchased tell me all the things they could do to the car ...and their expressions when I would quote the GCR " you can't do that...that's illegal" Often, they would say..no it's not...unknowling because they never read the GCR and I would point the item out....So! everyone else is, you need to to be competitive.....and so on.

So I gave it a year and a half running my little 944 N/A way back in the back of the pack...just working on learning how to carry momentum and become a better driver. My goals were to always post a better lap time with each race and to return home with the same car I started with after a weekend of racing.

Finally, last spring 03' SCCA approved the 944 S into ITS. Here I figured I could now build a car that could be competitive. Over this last 18 months, I have painstakenly built a car within the rules of GCR with the quest to be competitive. Many time the temptation has presented itself to go that little extra, however, something is keeping me within the lines that we should all maintain.....my lap times are coming down, my relative position is getting better (I'm slowly moving up the gird) not because I'm doing what I shouldn't be doing, but hopefully from becoming a better driver. Now the personal satisifaction is from knowing that I am posting lap times and finishing up with those with a legal car knowing how illegal they are. Even more fun is watching them spend an incomprehensible amount of money and I'm still right there.

Then there are those that are legal up where I am that I am really enjoying racing with. I watch and listen with every new race....find out from the more experienced drivers how to get that extra 10th by taking turn 17 just a little faster...braking just a little deeper and being as competitive as I can be with the equipment that I have.

Remember: " There will always be a faster car...there will will be a better driver...have fun...we all get the same prize $money at the end...Be Safe!"

Hopefully within ourselves we become the ones to maintain the ability not to cheat because in the end you only have yourself to look back at...after that...enjoy the day!

Mark
#54 ITS (TAZ)
944S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

lateapex911
09-04-2004, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by wpspeedracer:

I got into racing about three years ago and made the decision to get into ITS by the car I wanted to drive....unknowing the ability of that car to win. I thought this division was set up such that you could build a car within the rules and be competitive, no matter what the make and/or model....that it came down soley to the ability of the driver. ....... So off I went....first by reading the GCR - ITS throughly to understand what I could and couldn't do. I rember early on those helping me modify my first ITS car that I had purchased tell me all the things they could do to the car ...and their expressions when I would quote the GCR " you can't do that...that's illegal" Often, they would say..no it's not...unknowling because they never read the GCR........

Mark
#54 ITS (TAZ)
944S

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited September 04, 2004).]

First, great post Mark. I agree with you completely, but I am frustrated by those who chose the other (easier) path. While some think that they are acting in a way that is only kidding themselves, I find it disrespectful to the rest of us. But anyway....

Your first paragraph is interesting...it shows how our moral fiber can play a direct role in the car we drive right from the start. You assumed that the SCCA had set up a perfect world and you had a fair chance in any car ....ah well, I wish it were so!

Your friends showed thier character by asssuming this and that was legal, and never reading the rulebook.

Interesting how a persons character can make him assume different (both incorrectly, BTW...) things.....

(..and this post could also be used as fodder in the "newbies screw up" thread as proof that a FQ section wouldn't be a bad idea. This post illuminates the mindset that some guys like Mark have, who start out thinking that whatever they choose has a chance.)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Ron Earp
09-05-2004, 08:22 AM
As for what to check, I like the idea of checking cams. The problem is while they are usually reasonably easy to pull, tech crews don't have the tools and known legal samples to prove legality/illegality. Just checking lift and duration doesn't cut it. Also, checking lift on a cam with hydraulic lash adjusters is tricky to get right.
[/B]

I saw this discussion on another thread with BMWs and tear-down fees etc. I have a E36 BMW and I'm prepping my JH right now. Checking lift of a cam in an OHC engine is simple on most designs. In fact, just did it on the JH to comapre with cams I have on the beach to make sure the ones in are stock. Dial indicator, magnetic base to hold it, turn the motor over, measure cam lift. Sure, I can't do duration this way but just checking the lift would spot a lot of problems and is quick and easy to do. No need to pull it for an easy check like this. uOn the JH I could actually do it through the oil fill hole!

Looked at the E36 in the driveway too - pull the black engine cover off, pull the valve cover, same procedure just a little more complicated.

Geo
09-05-2004, 08:40 AM
Try doing that on an HVLA car with rocker arms.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Ron Earp
09-05-2004, 08:51 AM
Yes, it will not work for some cars, but it'll do fine with a lot of the SOHC and DOHC designs. It certainly isn't a fix all but I merely wanted to point out that it doesn't have to be labour intensive or a five hour process in many cases.

Sorry, don't want to pirate the thread either. This legal/illegal and protest mechanism has me intrigued. I'm learning a lot, but I'm also seeing where some things are not optimal.

R

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

lateapex911
09-05-2004, 12:58 PM
I guess it gets back to the original presumption, and tat all cars are legal unless the proteter can sffect proof otherwise.

The tech officials are then handed the leg work in proving the protest. As such, they can't take teh protest,which would presumably be for an illegal cam, and just check the lift. It wouldn't prove that the cam was legal, just one aspect of it was. And thats the crux of the problem with cams. Determining what you should have vs whats actually there.

The very cornerstone of the process puts a lot of responsibility on the protester, and the system works well to discourage petty protests, but also a lot of legitimate protests get muffled as well.

You are right in that if the protester wants to protest cam lift only, he can, and its a more simplified task. He is making the bet that the protestee is dumb enough to blatently cheat, but the protest will do little to prove that the car is really legal.

And that's probably why you don't see a lot of protests like that. Guys say, 'well, if I catch him great, but if I don't, it doesn't prove that he IS legal, and I pay a high prive form a social aspect'. The risk/reward ratio isn't good, and most just continue grumbling!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Ron Earp
09-05-2004, 01:47 PM
I'm new to this and maybe shouldn't comment, but here goes anyway.

It seems to me the protest system is difficult, at best, to use. And, if you do use it you just created some seriously bad blood between you and whomever you protested, regardless of the outcome. There should be another system in place that can remove the racers from the mechanics of how it works, leaving them to race and not engage in what is going to be viewed as personal attacks.

The lottery system was suggested which would seem relatively fair. Variations of the scheme could be picking from the top five cars at a race, or having a maditory insepction once every year or so that be done without prior knowledge.

I'm sure cost could be a concern, but maybe groups that specialize in certain cars could be formed that do teardowns for that model and similar. Before anyone asks, yes, I'll ante up and promise to tear down all the Jensen Healeys and TR8s that are racing, it is the least I could do. ;-)

Seriously, the way the protest system is now I really don't see how anyone could use it. I've not been out there, but I've received a lot of help from IT folks in the 6 weeks I've been working on my car. Very knowledgable folks that I like and look forward to meeting in person. Using the protest system seems to be difficult if you wish to keep any friends on the grid. Not to mention the cash portion of it since it can cost considerable money to do something that should be happening anyway.

Ron



------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

lateapex911
09-05-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
I'm new to this and maybe shouldn't comment, but here goes anyway.


Actually your viewpoint is important because of your newness...




It seems to me the protest system is difficult, at best, to use. And, if you do use it you just created some seriously bad blood between you and whomever you protested, regardless of the outcome.



Bingo



The lottery system was suggested which would seem relatively fair. Variations of the scheme could be picking from the top five cars at a race, or having a maditory insepction once every year or so that be done without prior knowledge.

Here are some issues. (And I should go on record here that I would support a better system, as I agree the current one is not without its drawbacks).

1- The biggest issue it the tech staff, which varies greatly between regions. Having enough knowledgable staff is difficult to get at any race, and finding those who are looking for "more work" thins an already light crowd.

2 Procedural issues. Like the legal system, many cases get decided on procedural mistakes or inconsistancies. Its a fairly complicated procedure, and demands a lot of time to administer, separate from the teardown mechanics of it.

3- Knowledge base. As you pointed out, there needs to be proper knowledge, but that will have to come from the crowd. Conflict of interest anyone?





Seriously, the way the protest system is now I really don't see how anyone could use it. I've not been out there, but I've received a lot of help from IT folks in the 6 weeks I've been working on my car. Very knowledgable folks that I like and look forward to meeting in person. Using the protest system seems to be difficult if you wish to keep any friends on the grid. Not to mention the cash portion of it since it can cost considerable money to do something that should be happening anyway.

Ron


And that, my friend, is why you rarely see a mechanical protest at a regional event. The Runoffs, the ARRCs, or othr "marquee" events are different, but it rarely happens locally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to quash ideas...but it's helpful to undrestand the monster before you can dicover it's achilles heel!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

m glassburner
09-05-2004, 08:44 PM
Can anybody figure out a somewhat easy and cheap way to police this ?? mike g.

Ron Earp
09-06-2004, 11:34 AM
Well, on this disassembly/tech inspection we're assuming it has to happen at the track and I suppose that is a correct assumption since people have to return home that weekend. And, we're assuming that the inspection should be done by us, meaning SCCA folk. But, those constraints certainly limit possiblities because our resources are limited.

If a lottery system were devised that selected from the top 3-5, randomly, and, the inspection was only done every 2-5 races, also at random, then I think it could become a possibility.

It seems to me it would be possible to form a disassembly team from the large number of people that are available. This team would be comprised of enough members that at any race there would for sure be enough to do the job so that when the random check comes up it can be performed.

Certainly, the things that people are after to check are the most important - engine meaning:

*Heads for illegal port work
*Valve sizes, port work here or illegal valve jobs
*Compression ratio
*Cams - lift and duration
*Cam timing
*Intake/carbs/porting, illegal parts

And of course there are many others, but this would catch some of the big things. Of course brakes, chassis, etc. to be inspected but this is fairly easy.

Not all the good engine stuff could be checked - but certainly the high spots could be checked with a buret, dial indicators, micrometers, and a few other things. I'm sure that there are enough people here that have the knowledge to pull this off. With the owner gladly participating too, because the inspection was random instead of a personal attack, then it'll go smoothly. I'd wager that most owners can tear their cars down pretty easily thus with them overseeing it should go quickly.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, there always are, and I'm sure some people might say "you people aren't tearing down MY $20,000 engine", but, at the risk of getting flamed and kicked out of here, is IT about $20,000 motors? And, to check the basic things that are needed a teardown doesn't have to happen - head removal, which is usually no huge problem, can get most of the stuff people are interested in knowing about.

I might be way off here but I'm just trying to inject a little newbieness into this procedure that seems to, by and large, not work too well.



------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

Chuck Davis
09-08-2004, 10:09 AM
When I first began racing (back in the 20th century) tech would randomly select a top finisher during the inpound process (having agreed in advance among the tech inspectors what part or parts they were going to inspect)and verify the legality of that part or parts. This was done for every class but not every race event. It helped slow things down but didn't totally discourage the "creative thinking" among the competitors.
Your rational is well founded and I appreciate your concerns. The problem is that cars have become much more complex and the general level of tech inspectors less knowledgeable about the cars. The second factor is time and the numbers of qualified tech people at race events. Use your protest power!!! Make sure you get it right when you file the protest. You may think you'll end up the bad guy but the truth is you'll be appreciated for actions.

Ron Earp
09-08-2004, 11:55 AM
Hi Chuck,

Looks like this movie has been played before! However, just because it has been seen it before doesn't mean we shouldn't watch it again.

The cars are going to become increasingly "complex" but people will have to figure out a way to tech them. If we can build them, which it is apparent we can, we need to be able to tech them.

I still think for the things that we want to check, they are relatively accessible. If we go down the road of "the cars are too complicated" then we will open the door for the folks that don't mind working with the complicated cars to have a heyday. If I know you won't tech my BMWVTECSXVANOSWhatafluzit because you're afraid/unable/unwilling to take it apart, then, it might invite less honest folk to put all matter of cams, rods, cranks, displacement, etc. into the build.

Just my 0.02 cents. There has to be a way to make this work to remove the finger pointing, bad blood, and relative lack of use and teching of the cars.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

lateapex911
09-08-2004, 08:59 PM
Good points on both counts.

Lets see what this results in.

We could....hire tech guys who are paid for their knowledge and have them tear into cars at will...

Increased entry cost would take care of the cost.

Many problems with that idea...too may to list. Thoughts?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

ITB 2M4
09-11-2004, 07:57 PM
There are different types of 'dyno pulls'.

My dad and I held track records at Sebring and Moroso, but were 9!!! seconds off the pace at Daytona (A definate HP track for ITC).

My personal favorite was the guy who outweighed me by 130lbs. (back before weighing car with driver), used the same car, just a year later model w/hatchback so it had to weigh 150lbs. more, and could pull around me, pass me, and break the draft after I'd put a car length on him coming out of the turn onto the back straight at Moroso.

If the dyno thing doesn't work for some, just get a stopwatch, mark off a known length of straight, and maybe even get a cheap radar gun.... that will tell you a lot too.

------------------
Fl. Region ITB Fiero
AIM- DGPFiero

Racy-Stacey
09-18-2004, 10:13 PM
Guys this is a great topic and I think a lot of you are thinking too hard at what could be done.

I would like to create the 10% rule.

The 10% rule is simply this.
Now this will by no means be a cheap way of going about fairness but It just might work.

The first thing needed is a Dyno at each track. The top runner(s) (( if ) protested)) would be subject to the 10% rule.

Each car would be placed on the dyno. SCCA would have a national average of each cars dyno plot of a legal race car running slicks. The dyno plot would be matched against the SCCA spec for the car being tested and the protested car must fall within 10% horsepower/ torque of the SCCA spec.

Any offenders of this 10% rule would be subject to a tear down if a futher protest was reqested at a fee higher than the fee for the 10% rule protest.

This would allow a fast quick determination of cars running HP/Torque way higher than what a legal race engine would putout. And would not condone tearing an engine down. The 10% rule would also allow for tuning avariences and atmosphearic conditions and elevations found around the country.

If my frinds BMW is racing against another BMW that smoked him by 1:04 a lap.. I would like to know what power output that car is making against the SCCA spec for that car.

When we classify our cars there is a box listed for HP/TQ output for each and every car looking to be classified. Now with allowed bolts on's - Headers and 2-1/2" exhausts and high flow cats or no cats, removed emissions devices. The power and tq ratings go up.

So what SCCA would have to do is look at the first numbers (stock output numbers) place one legaly prepped race car with all the legal modifications allowed to the engine. Place this car on the dyno and do 3 pulls and get a reading. Then calculate the 10% varience and there ya have it.

There are about 20 different types of cars running IT.. I dont think it would take millions of dollers to test 20 cars.

Well thats my idea to keep the peace and keep the fun alive in IT.

------------------
Toodles,
Stacey_B AOL IM: SCCAStaceyIB 1990PGL (http://www.scpoc.com/Car%20Profiles/stacey.htm) SCCA STSL "Girls Do It Better" Cal Club T&S, BWRP,WS,Lag,Hallett www.scpoc.com (http://www.SCPOC.com) : www.probetalk.com (http://www.probetalk.com) Racing is my life. Winner One Lap of America 2003- SSGT2 class 1996 Ford Probe GT.

gran racing
09-20-2004, 08:35 AM
This may be a bit hard. My Honda Prelude (2nd gen) for example, there are very, very few being raced.

Steve and Ray race older Audis. Again, not many being run.

Of course there are many other cars like this. Maybe more then people may think esp. What what be done with these types of cars?

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude