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Ron Earp
08-22-2004, 07:03 PM
I almost hate to open this topic after Cherokee tried, but I'm sort of stuck and need guidance.

My Jensen Healey is now 31 years old and I'm working on making it into an ITS car. That said, it is in reasonable shape and I think once together and debugged it will be competitive with a decent driver (I'm a novice, so that isn't me!).

I'm working on wiring now and of course, being a British car and old, the wiring is shot. Too many previous owners, too many years, thus very little works.

There are no replacement harnesses. They are not made any more and anything you can find is a pull-out from a car and 30 years old. My car has the factory harness and I am leaving it in the car.

But, is it reasonable to assume that in order to get say the brakes to work I can run a wire back to the brakes from the pedal, alongside the melted and mangled mess of the old harness? Ditto starter, ignition, and a few other useful items? I can hardly find two wires that have continuity from front to back in this thing, and, I still fear shorts and fire. Don't get me wrong, the mechanics of the car are okay and will be safe, but wiring was never a British strong point - I've a healthy respect of electrical fires in Brit cars!

The way I read the rule book is that yes, I can do this to get my car functional. But, I'm completely new to the game and don't want to do something that will get the car failed in tech or protested. Not a good way to start off or to make new friends.

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

lateapex911
08-22-2004, 07:21 PM
I will answer your question from two viewpoints...

Legally I think you are fine, and I'm confident enough to not consult my GCR. Of course, I'm just a bunch of bits and bites that wants to help out, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

My other angle is more touchy feely...If I saw that your car had the stock wiring, and some extra wires, I would know that you were trying, and that you had a good attitude. You wouldn't get anything from me but praise, regardless of legality.

I can't see this as a performance advantage either, so as far as I'm concerned, have at it.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 22, 2004).]

Geo
08-22-2004, 08:14 PM
Actually, by my reading of the rulebook, this is not legal. What you are allowed to do is to repair your wiring harness, not replace it with something else (even if you leave the old one in place).


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Ron Earp
08-22-2004, 08:47 PM
Obviously, hoping for a concensus is probably a little far-fetched here given some of the discussions I've seen on wiring and the recent rollcage thing.

Maybe I should ask another question: Are there any cars running in IT, that have passed tech and routinely race, that have additional wires controlling equipment in the cars?

If I have to replace/rebuild the original harness then it wouldn't be that bad, but, what I'd end up with is a very simple harness that controls basic functions - because that is all the car had from the factory! But, I'd essentially be building a harness as what is there is not repairable.

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

lateapex911
08-22-2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:

Maybe I should ask another question: Are there any cars running in IT, that have passed tech and routinely race, that have additional wires controlling equipment in the cars?

Ron



Um....yeah..all over the place.

I guess I stand corrected on the absolute legality of the issue, sorry!

But don't forget that tech isn't concerned with legality per se'. Do your best, and you should be fine...IMHO.

Still, I would be shocked if anyone ever said anything...even if you take the gold atthe ARRCs!



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

08-22-2004, 08:58 PM
tech is for safety, its up to your competitors to allow you to run a car that dosnt quite fit the letter of thr gcr. I got my annual sticker with the stock harness at home 20 miles away in a box where it belongs IMHO.

lateapex911
08-22-2004, 09:00 PM
errr...sorry dbl post...

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 22, 2004).]

Ron Earp
08-22-2004, 10:23 PM
If that is the case, then I opt for safety. I won't be taking any titles, of that I'm certain, and I'd rather be safe than on fire. I don't think anyone would protest that. But, I want to be legal so there are no concerns.

I know some would raise the question why race the car if you think it has problems?

That isn't it. Mechanically the car is fine, the wiring is just no where near modern technology. In fact, it wasn't even modern for 1970s. I'm afraid that it wouldn't be reliable period. The harness and connectors are not even as good as domestic iron in the 70s, it is on par with VW stuff from the 60s, which originated long before that. In short, not good. I think I will try and leave it, but I won't try and use it except when I can find a wire or connection that works.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

dickita15
08-23-2004, 07:09 AM
go ahead and add the seven wires it takes to race the car and just leave the old harnness in place. I belive it is legal and if if others i respect disagree it is at least defenceable using 17.1.4.D.1.e, D.3.c and D.9.c.

I know i can change my ignition wires that is adressed. i know i can add my cooling fan wire that is adressed. I can change and move my fuel pump so i must be able to run a wire to the new location. i know I can rewire from the battery in order to add a kill switch. I assume i can add my transponder. the hardest ones to defend are the brake lights, wipers and defroster. and that is the entire race car.
I know with more modern cars there is concern about rules creap and unintended benifits from bypassing the harness but with older carb cars we just want to not burn them to the ground.
dick patullo

joeg
08-23-2004, 07:15 AM
Lucas electrical systems don't have many wires (and fewer fuses...) Go ahead!!!

Mark LaBarre
08-23-2004, 07:24 AM
In my mind, running another wire along side the damaged harness is a repair. As long as you don't remove the harness, I think your meeting the intent of the rules.

Geo
08-23-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Mark LaBarre:
In my mind, running another wire along side the damaged harness is a repair. As long as you don't remove the harness, I think your meeting the intent of the rules.

1) Running a new wire and leaving the old in place is indeed a repair, but unless it is called out to do this in the FSM or a factory bulletin, it is not legal.

2) Intent is not important except for creating and writing rules. What matters is the written rule.

This is all of course assuming you want to have a legal car.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Ron Earp
08-23-2004, 09:40 AM
This one looks to be going the way of Cherokee's eariler thread, so I'll end the discussion now.

Of course, very little is available for wiring and repair documentation on the car. So, Geo's comment regarding factory repair procedures are long gone, as are probably most of the factory workers from that era.

I will run repair wires for the car to get it operable and safe. Obviously, these wires will not be the exact same gauge, color, material, nor precise placement as the originals (good question - if you cannot repair the wire with EXACT original wire, then is it legal or not? On second though, ignore that question). Therefore, according to Geo's interpretation the car will not be legal. So be it, that is out in the open now and if you see the car next year you'll know the story.

It doesn't appear that I have much of a choice. If I make the harness, by the book it will not be a proscribed factory repair procedure since there isn't any. Ditto patching it, since it isn't going to be exact. Therefore, I've made the decision and think I pretty much just have to make it work, by hook or crook.

I just didn't want the thread to turn into a tirade as a couple of other rules questions.

Thanks for the help,
Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!


[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 23, 2004).]

Geo
08-23-2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by rlearp:
Of course, very little is available for wiring and repair documentation on the car. So, Geo's comment regarding factory repair procedures are long gone, as are probably most of the factory workers from that era.

I will run repair wires for the car to get it operable and safe. Obviously, these wires will not be the exact same gauge, color, material, nor precise placement as the originals (good question - if you cannot repair the wire with EXACT original wire, then is it legal or not? On second though, ignore that question). Therefore, according to Geo's interpretation the car will not be legal. So be it, that is out in the open now and if you see the car next year you'll know the story.

That's a nice rationalization. I'm not trying to beat on you, but I assume you asked the question because you wanted to remain legal.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Ron Earp
08-23-2004, 10:05 AM
And I do, hence the question. I approach this the way I approach most things, I want to do it right. It is just in the confines of the rulebook getting this car on the track correctly seems to be impossible with a strict interpretation.

Some might say, well, get another car or don't race something that old, etc. However, if this attitude was taken I'm afraid IT, in concept, would not be all that interesting. There is something cool about the throught of having a field of dissimilar cars running about the same track together.

At least, it is cool when you think about the strengths and weaknesses of various motors, chassis, etc. It is not cool if they are dissimilar, say, in the way that some have a propensity to burn to the ground due to faulty electrics. That is what I'm trying to avoid.

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

ITSRX7
08-23-2004, 10:39 AM
I want to see some pics of that Healey - now!!

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 23, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 23, 2004).]

Ron Earp
08-23-2004, 11:29 AM
My helper:

http://www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/100_0141.JPG

Car four weeks ago
http://www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/100_0153.JPG

http://www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/100_0154.JPG

I'll post some others here tonight. Notice the wires hanging around - the whole damn car is like that. Someone has hacked pieces and splices into everything on the car - red, yellow, blue, white, green, wires all over. The dash is out now and the interior is prepped (primered) although it is far from pretty since the metal surfaces were very rough.

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

Knestis
08-23-2004, 11:50 AM
I think that I'd be tempted to get some self-sealing waterproof butt splices and start REPLACING those wires rather than running parallel pieces. Start at a known point and follow each wire with a new one, splicing it in as close to the OE connector as possible.

Of course, this assumes that the connectors are not suspect...

FWIW - and appropos of nothing - I repaired a faulty (but not shorted) vehicle speed sensor wire in the Golf by running a parallel wire outside of the stock harness. Eventually, when I open up the harnesses to get serious about weeding out circuits for optional stuff not on the base car, I'll address it for real but that's how it's going to work for now.

K

John Herman
08-23-2004, 12:28 PM
Ron, If you could make from scratch with 100% new components a complete wiring harness which is close to the factory harness in routing, wiring gage, etc., I say do that as opposed to splicing and hacking the old bits and pieces. You will have a hard enough time on the learning curve and diagnosing wiring issues at a race should not be one of them. Keep everything clean and professional looking, and you shouldn't have a problem. Keep the old wiring harness(es) in a bag, on the trailer, for documentation purposes.

Geo
08-23-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
And I do, hence the question. I approach this the way I approach most things, I want to do it right. It is just in the confines of the rulebook getting this car on the track correctly seems to be impossible with a strict interpretation.

Trust me. I understand. I have a 20 year old German car that was put together with tape and glue. The wiring harness is a mess compared with what I'm used to.

I think someone else gave you a legal out that would require minimal rebuilding of your current wiring harness.

I am installing 100% aftermarket gauges in my car. I can wire them as I see fit. I have removed a number of items that are allowed to be removed. The ends of each wire will be shrink wrapped and groups will be further shrink wrapped.

Basically I will be left with the HVAC, lighting, and power windows (yes, I've kept all windows for convenience of towing/security), and of course the engine controls (including fuel pump). I think the trick is to figure out those things that are unneeded and isolate them. You can really cut down on any possible rewiring that may be necessary. That's my take.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

cherokee
08-23-2004, 03:45 PM
FLASH BACK http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

dickita15
08-23-2004, 04:06 PM
Maybe you can get Healey to superceed the wiring harness part number with a roll of #14 wire from NAPA. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

dick patullo

Ron Earp
08-23-2004, 04:31 PM
Dick, you are on the money! If JH still existed...

The fact is the wiring is so simple that if I hadn't mentioned it here I probably could have re-wired the whole thing, in electrical tape covering, and under inspection nobody would know. But, I'm just trying to be honest and do things the right way.

My personal opinion is that the rule is silly. Maintain stock parts per the rule book, but does it really matter what wires conduct the electricity? Hell, if BMW folks can run a MOTEC engine management system to me that is far and away more changes from stock than me running a few wires to control my car. But, what do I know, I'm knew to this and just want to play the game right.

Ron


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

JeffYoung
08-23-2004, 04:55 PM
Since I am the one who told Ron he could do what he is asking to do, I feel like I ought to jump in here.

George, I understand your points, but isn't it a fair reading of the rule to say that when you have a frazzled wiring harness (and I've seen Ron's and it is frazzled) you can repair it by rewiring? I guess I just don't see how that isn't within the spirit of the rules.

Ron, as Jake and others have indicated, probably 99% of the cars you will run against have been completely rewired with fuse panels, etc. No one in the SeDiv is going to protest you, and I think they would get a big old raspberry if they did.

Jeff (who carries TWO fire bottles in his car as a voodoo protection against Lucas instigated electrical fires)
1980 ITS TR8

Ron Earp
08-23-2004, 05:33 PM
On further thought, I definitely could have re-wired this thing and nobody would ever know.

It took 10 days in 1973 for the factory to produce a JH. Now, since these were low volume we probably had one guy, say Malcolm, that made wiring harnesses. When Malcolm caught a bad case of the brown bottle flu, or worse, expired, someone else, say William would do his job. Then the wiring harness would be totally different - different day, different person. How do I know - I've seen two JHs now and neither have very similar harnesses and both are supposedly stock.

So, factory spec repair - probably no such thing. I imagine that my spec repair will be just fine.

Ron

cherokee
08-23-2004, 06:45 PM
I think you know the answer http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

lateapex911
08-23-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by JeffYoung:

Jeff (who carries TWO fire bottles in his car as a voodoo protection against Lucas instigated electrical fires)
1980 ITS TR8


Thanks ALOT Jeff, I now have sticky Coca Cola ALL over my nice flatscreen monitor, and I think I got some in my sinuses....

Ron, more power to you...you're gonna be just fine. In hindsight, this might have been one of theose cases wher you ask for forgiveness, rather than permission! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

And this coming from a guy some have called a "rules nerd"...although I don't see the likeness.... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

As usual Kirk adds a good thought, AND we all now know how he can be protested! Turn in the rules nerd badge Mr. K! LOL


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Knestis
08-23-2004, 07:21 PM
I don't think there's much question on this point, frankly. Running a parallel wire to fix a break is a repair. Wholesale replacement of wires in the stock loom is a repair. Building a new loom by replacing all of the melted wire, using the OE connectors, is a repair...

Putting the stock loom in the glove box and running a few new wires to suit one's own purposes is outside of the spirit of the rules.

It's that last bit that makes me a NERD, I guess.

K

08-23-2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
Maybe you can get Healey to superceed the wiring harness part number with a roll of #14 wire from NAPA. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

dick patullo

I agree, try and make a 7 run with to stk harness and still monitor what you need.

Geo
08-23-2004, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
george you must admit that strict rule interpretation in cases like this are difficult for the racer. this is the reason i do not like the rule. change is not unprecidented, if i remember from fastrack such an allowance was made for A Sedan this year because many cars start as fire/theft cars.

The rules allow for the wiring harness to be repaired. The minute we allow replacing the wires alongside the stock harness is the minute I build an entirely new harness for my car for just the components I need.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
08-24-2004, 12:00 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I don't think there's much question on this point, frankly. Running a parallel wire to fix a break is a repair. Wholesale replacement of wires in the stock loom is a repair. Building a new loom by replacing all of the melted wire, using the OE connectors, is a repair...

Putting the stock loom in the glove box and running a few new wires to suit one's own purposes is outside of the spirit of the rules.

It's that last bit that makes me a NERD, I guess.

No, talking about the spirit of the rules requires you to turn in your Rules Nerd badge. Spirit has has nothing to do with it. The rule is written. What it says is what it says, spirit be damned.

So, by your belief written above, you're OK with me building a new wiring harness for the components I will use and running that through the car and using only that, leaving the stock harness limp inside the car? You'd better say yes. The minute I can replace individual wires and leave the old one intact is the minute I make my own wiring harness.

In fact, with these discussions here and elsewhere, I'm strongly considering doing this anyway. My wiring harness is balled up in the driver's footwell in my car right now waiting for me to paint it. If I just create a harness for those things I need to connect, hooking my car back up will be a breeze and the harness will be much more reliable and easier to work on should I have an electrical problem.

You know what, I think it's time for me to write to Topeka for a ruling on this one. It could save me a bunch of work.

[edit]
BTW, I will run my original and unused harness roughly where it originally went. It just won't connect to anything.

[edit2]
Friends don't let friends type while sleep deprived. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif (minor corrections)

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

Ron Earp
08-24-2004, 07:47 AM
Is someone going to write KS on this one? If not, I'll be willing to do it.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

cherokee
08-24-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
The rules allow for the wiring harness to be repaired. The minute we allow replacing the wires alongside the stock harness is the minute I build an entirely new harness for my car for just the components I need. I would bet that the J-H and other cars of this vintage, and type are about the same....we ain't talking about a-lot of wires here guys.




Just out of curiosity what would you not need on my 34yr old car? I want to keep all the lighting, I need all the wires to make the gauges work, I need all the wires to make the motor run and the charging system work. What else is there? The speaker (ONE) wire, and the radio that's it.



[This message has been edited by cherokee (edited August 24, 2004).]

Geo
08-24-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by cherokee:
Just out of curiosity what would you not need on my 34yr old car? I want to keep all the lighting, I need all the wires to make the gauges work, I need all the wires to make the motor run and the charging system work. What else is there? The speaker (ONE) wire, and the radio that's it.

Well, if you go with aftermarket gauges you don't need those wires for starters. How many more wires do you have in a 34 year old wiring harness?

[edit] to correct formatting.

------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited August 24, 2004).]

dickita15
08-24-2004, 02:42 PM
so before i write my letter asking for a rule change to allow you to build a new harness, what is the down side. for older carburated like mine i see it as no big deal. you would only want to replace it if your old one is suspect. with newer computer cars is there any way that putting a new harness in could change performance.
dick

cherokee
08-24-2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
Well, if you go with aftermarket gauges you don't need those wires for starters. How many more wires do you have in a 34 year old wiring harness?

[edit] to correct formatting.




Not many what did not turn green was reclaimed by mother earth http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif


As far as the other I wanted my guages to light up....I like lights http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif They are pretty. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


Originally posted by Geo:

I am installing 100% aftermarket gauges in my car. I can wire them as I see fit. I have removed a number of items that are allowed to be removed. The ends of each wire will be shrink wrapped and groups will be further shrink wrapped.



Are you sure....the gauges are free, but I do not see in the letter of the rules that you can replace the sending unit wires (if you are using electrical gauges) and if by the letter of the rules it does not say you can you can't...right or would you have to use the same lighting on your old guages. We are talking about bulbs here not gauges.

What I am saying there are gray areas in the rules everywhere and you can lay your car out as you see fit. Thats part of the fun of it. Just like these debates.
If you get protested and it falls through you where right. If not then you where wrong...bottom line is what everyone here says ain't worth squat. It is what happens in the tent that does matter. And who knows what the court of public opinion would say about someone that would protest you over a extra couple of wires.

[This message has been edited by cherokee (edited August 24, 2004).]

Ron Earp
08-24-2004, 04:07 PM
I have a question along the same vein.

I thought I read on a thread here on the board that BMWs are running MOTEC engine management units. I am familar with these and what they are capable of. Is this true that this is allowed?

To me, this looks to be one heck of a bigger change than patching/altering/repairing/or replacing a wiring harness, especially on a simple car like I have. ECUs are unlimited but replacing a wiring harness with a safer setup is difficult to get through the rule book? That makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

Knestis
08-24-2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
so before i write my letter asking for a rule change to allow you to build a new harness, what is the down side. ...?

"No, that's not a piggyback ECU - that's a 'wiring connector.' Seriously - see how the wires connect to it? Really. Don't look at me like that. What? WHAT!?"

I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires - with the OE harness still there - and building a new one that doesn't replicate the original.

I've never advocated for removing "wires that you don't need," except to the extent made possible by the removal of optional equipment. For example (dare I say it), the ABS system uses a small harness that lays parallel to the standard engine bay and dash harnesses in my Golf. If I can run a car that never came with ABS, I can take out those wires under the up- and back-date rule. The radio harness, heated seats, and some other stuff are treated the same way.

I cannot - as we did with the rally car - just unwind the harnesses and remove anything that I don't care about any more.

K

EDIT - Geo, it seems to me that the "spirit" in this case is embedded in the connotative meaning of the word "repair." It's certainly allowed that we may REPAIR a wiring problem but it is NOT allowed - by the meaning of the word - to "repair it away" and put in its place an assembly that does not fulfill the functions of the original.

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited August 24, 2004).]

apr67
08-24-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
For example (dare I say it), the ABS system uses a small harness that lays parallel to the standard engine bay and dash harnesses in my Golf. If I can run a car that never came with ABS, I can take out those wires under the up- and back-date rule. The radio harness, heated seats, and some other stuff are treated the same way.


Umm.. So if the car didn't have a radio, the harness for it wasn't their?

Beware, rule nerd alert.

Ron Earp
08-24-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires - with the OE harness still there - and building a new one that doesn't replicate the original.


Following this logic then you would definitely not approve of a BMW running a MOTEC engine management computer. The MOTEC does have functions (very advanced ones too) that control the engine but does not have a lot of the controls and code that are in the OEM computer. It certainly doesn't replicate the OEM computer since it is unsaddled with a lot of code/functions and it offers a performance advantage.

A replacement wiring harness offers a safety advantage for me, over stock, but offers me no performance advantage.

So, to my novice eyes and way of thinking, running an aftermarket performance computer to control an engine would be a much larger change away from OEM/stock than any of the wiring scenerios were are discussing here.

Ron


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 24, 2004).]

JeffYoung
08-24-2004, 05:45 PM
Ron, two years ago I think the Comp Board "opened up" the ECU rule and made ECUs free so long as they fit in the original ECU housing. I agree, this is a significant change from stock, but I think the COB just gave up on trying to police it because it was nearly impossible to do. I don't know if that is a good reason for a change, but it is what happened and the result is that chipped cars did get a significant (in my view, as - admittedly - the driver of a carbed car) advantage over the older tech carbs.

Some people on this board who (a) know far more about these things than I and (B) whose opinion I value argue fairly persuasively that the ECU rule just allows EFI cars to do what carb car drivers can do: vary air fuel mixture via needles and jets.

But I disagree, somewhat. ECU/EFI cars can precisely plot air/fuel mixtures over rev ranges and have the engine tuned to respond better to race conditions. With a jet/needle adjustment, you are making a rough, static adjustment to a constantly changing environment.

My two cents anyway.

Knestis
08-24-2004, 05:48 PM
I guess that I'm guilty of assuming that since the ABS and radio circuits are separate, they wouldn't be installed if the optional equipment weren't there. I don't have the stuff for the heated seats, for example - no switch and no harness ends that would terminate where it should be - but maybe I'm making a bad assumption.

If the circuits in question were integral to the main harness, I'd agree with your premise (apr67). If it were determined that the City Golf stripper model that didn't come with a radio did NOT have the harness, it would be fair game under the up-/back-date rule, right?

The Motec situation is entirely different because there is a rule in place that specfically authorizes the replacement of the ECU guts. Not that I think it's a GOOD rule, mind you. It's a dumbass rule as written, making some economical answers illegal while making really expensive ones OK.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I have to confess that I'm still conflicted about the, "If I can remove Part X, then I can remove the wires that make Part X work" interpretation.

K

Geo
08-24-2004, 06:26 PM
Originally posted by cherokee:
Are you sure....the gauges are free, but I do not see in the letter of the rules that you can replace the sending unit wires (if you are using electrical gauges)

Apparently you are not used to electrical gauges. They must use their own (matched) sending unit.


Originally posted by cherokee:
would you have to use the same lighting on your old guages. We are talking about bulbs here not gauges.

Well, if the bulbs come with the gauges you need to be able to wire them up. This is not the least bit controversial.


Originally posted by cherokee:
What I am saying there are gray areas in the rules everywhere and you can lay your car out as you see fit.

I agree that what happens in the tent is what matters. IMHO the wording of the rules allows you to replace a faulty wire in the harness. If you are just going to run additional wires, and this is deemed acceptable (and I'm starting to see some rationale here), then I'm going to just create a new harness for the things I need hooked up and only use that. Period. That will become the standard for IT, not because I did it, but because that would be the smart methodology. It's rules creep, but if we are going down that road, may as well shift into high. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
08-24-2004, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires - with the OE harness still there - and building a new one that doesn't replicate the original.

Please define the difference. I say there is absolutely zero. Remember, if it says you can, you bloody well can. So if I can run parallel wires, I can run them for every wire I need (honest, I repaired the entire harness).


Originally posted by Knestis:
I've never advocated for removing "wires that you don't need," except to the extent made possible by the removal of optional equipment.

I agree with you here. I'm not saying anything different.


Originally posted by Knestis:
Geo, it seems to me that the "spirit" in this case is embedded in the connotative meaning of the word "repair." It's certainly allowed that we may REPAIR a wiring problem but it is NOT allowed - by the meaning of the word - to "repair it away" and put in its place an assembly that does not fulfill the functions of the original.

Don't be wishy washy here Kirk. Either we are in this with both feet or we are not. You are trying to define this as you would like it to be. And your definition of repair is just as weak. Step back and think about it. If I repair my entire useful harness, how can you find me illegal? Spirit has nothing to do with it. Spirit is something rules makers need to consider so they write rules that meet the spirit of their intent. Failure to do so creates unintended consequences. So, if we can run an extra wire as a repair, I can repair my entire harness. Period. Trying to rule otherwise will be a huge boondoggle (like my wiring harness http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif ).


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
08-24-2004, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I have to confess that I'm still conflicted about the, "If I can remove Part X, then I can remove the wires that make Part X work" interpretation.

You would have to know what the various harness that came with the car included and select the configuration that best matches your needs.

In the case of the Sentra SE-R, I know when I bought my 91 road car new with no options, it was pre-wired for radio and speakers. The main harness had half the wiring for cruise control which wasn't offered on the car in any configuration in 1991 (but was in the NX2000 that shares the platform and wiring harness). I know there is more, but that's what comes off the top of my monkey brain.

So, if you really are a rules nerd who wants to stay 100% legal, you have some homework to do.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

dickita15
08-24-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
"No, that's not a piggyback ECU - that's a 'wiring connector.' Seriously - see how the wires connect to it? Really. Don't look at me like that. What? WHAT!?"

I think there is a WORLD of difference between repairing a problem by running a couple of parallel wires .

I've never advocated for removing "wires that you don't need,...

Ok kirk I did anticipate that example. though your dramatic flair was unexpected http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I know you did not advocate replacing harnesses, I am.

is there any logic in allowing it with cars that do not have engine management systems. I mean it is the old cars that have the bad harnesses and will not benefit from them.
dick

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited August 24, 2004).]

Geo
08-24-2004, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
I have a question along the same vein.

I thought I read on a thread here on the board that BMWs are running MOTEC engine management units. I am familar with these and what they are capable of. Is this true that this is allowed?

To me, this looks to be one heck of a bigger change than patching/altering/repairing/or replacing a wiring harness, especially on a simple car like I have. ECUs are unlimited but replacing a wiring harness with a safer setup is difficult to get through the rule book? That makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.



Well.......

The rule states you must use a stock, unmodified wiring harness, ECU connector, and ECU box. What goes on inside the box is open (anything goes). So, people are gutting stock ECUs, replacing the guts with Motecs, and wiring up the Motecs to the stock connector.

If it says you can, you bloody well can. (not that I like this personally)


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
08-24-2004, 07:55 PM
Ron, there's one thing you may have failed to consider that will answer all your questions, rules interpretations be damned: I'm fairly confident that you could build a brand new wiring harness from whatever materials you choose, and not a damned soul in the paddock will have any CLUE as to its legality. After all, it's not like they can compare it to the OTHER Jensens in the paddock...

I suspect you'll be just fine.

Greg

lateapex911
08-24-2004, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
I have a question along the same vein.

I thought I read on a thread here on the board that BMWs are running MOTEC engine management units. I am familar with these and what they are capable of. Is this true that this is allowed?

To me, this looks to be one heck of a bigger change than patching/altering/repairing/or replacing a wiring harness, especially on a simple car like I have. ECUs are unlimited but replacing a wiring harness with a safer setup is difficult to get through the rule book? That makes no sense whatsoever, IMHO.




Ahhh....you are very wise oh young one!....

Indeed the logic is questionable.

Here's the timeline of the logic.
Year 0 ...IT is invented...rulesmakers allow, sometime in the early days, the rejetting of carbs, and the adjustment of timing from stock. Precedence set.

We all race happily, and cars are classed at weights based upon expected performance of "IT improvements".

A car is classed that utilizes an ECU. The rulesmakers eventually look at precedence, and allow "replacement ECU chips" but it is strongly suspected that things are being done in the ECU box that are beyond that, and are very tough to police. Eventually they crumble and write a rule that allows whatever you can jamb in there, as long as you use the stock wire.

And the train comes off the tracks. Why? Because cars that were classed BEFORE this change had their weight set based on now incorrect horsepower and drivability assumptions. They WIN because they run at their "Pre Motec" weight (lighter), but get the benefits of such a system. The loser is any car that can't take advantage of an ECU upgrade.

Theoretically, cars that have been classed post the ECU rule change will not benefit as the board has set their weight based on assumptions that the competitors will gain greater HP with the better ECU.


A classic example of time, technology, a voluntary scrutineering staff, and hundreds of affected cars creating a conundrum, and the rules makers wiffing....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 24, 2004).]

bldn10
08-25-2004, 10:39 AM
"A car is classed that utilizes an ECU. The rulesmakers eventually look at precedence, and allow "replacement ECU chips" but it is strongly suspected that things are being done in the ECU box that are beyond that, and are very tough to police. Eventually they crumble and write a rule that allows whatever you can jamb in there, as long as you use the stock wire."

Jake, I started racing ITS is 1993 and as best as I recall there was no interim rule allowing aftermarket chips. NO ECU alterations were allowed but, as you accurately state, the suspicion was that some ECUs had been rechipped. If the job was done right it was indeed difficult to catch.
So one would think that the solution would be to legalize aftermarket chips or re-programming chips, etc. But NOOOOOO, they wrote a stupid and naive rule allowing the changes described above. I can't believe they ever contemplated anyone would cram an expensive MoTeC engine management system in there. But, then again, after the 3X remote shock experience, how could they have not? So you end up w/ a set of rules that allow a super-custom, $?000 EMS but won't let you, e.g., remove your headlight bulbs because it is "inconsistent with class philosophy." Forget logic.

Ron Earp
08-25-2004, 12:14 PM
I'm re-wiring, you'll have to protest me. Jeff helped me pull the dash and the wiring under there is fine. But, that doesn't run the car.

The stuff that runs the car, north of the firewall, is not factory and looks like it was wired by a monkey with access to lots of JC Whitney wire and assorted connectors. I am glad Jeff and I didn't stick the battery in and try to turn it over - the starter was straight wired to the battery harness with some 10 gauge wire.

http://www.gt40s.com/images/jensen/fire.JPG

So, I'll follow the original wiring diagram closely but I've got no choice if I want the car to run. To me these simple safety changes pale in comparison to running an entirely different ECU than the factory provided.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited August 25, 2004).]

dickita15
08-25-2004, 03:33 PM
ron i believe you are absolutly doing the right thing. I belive most all on this board agree. I also believe you did the right thing discussing it first so you understand all sides of the issue as well as possible. i am sure there is a voice inside that is saying you wish you had not brought it up but I think we all learn from such discussions. thank you
dick

Knestis
08-25-2004, 05:30 PM
What dickita said.

I always hear Mariachi music when I read his screen name, by the way...

"Another round of Dickitas for the whole table, por favor!"

K

JeffYoung
08-25-2004, 06:54 PM
And some chile con queso with my crispy fried wiring harness!

lateapex911
08-25-2004, 07:24 PM
I stand corrected. Sorry for the misinformation. Perhaps it was the lengthy gestation of the actual rule writing process, and the fact that the chips were in such widespread use that I remembered the situation incorrectly.

Chips per se' ARE consistant with the CP, although they are more powerful performance adjusters, and dynamic as well, than the static adjustments previously allowed.

If the timing of the rule change was handled better and the rule had been better controlled, the result would have been acceptable.

But you are right that what we have now is a joke gone awry.


Just don't call him the "Dickita banana"...he hates that...

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 25, 2004).]

Ron Earp
08-25-2004, 08:25 PM
I think the discussion is good and I'm glad I asked. Most seem to agree replacing the thing, repairing it, or even making a whole new one is no big deal. Only a one or two people see it as a problem, so, I'm comfortable with my decision. On any issue, there will always be a few who think differently and that is the spice of life.

The fact is, no matter what I do, there is no way you can argue I get a performance advantage. I just need to run my engine, read my gauges, and operate some lights. UNLESS you think that part of the British car experience means fighting in-car fires and I'll have a driving advantage in not having to deal with that! ;-0

Geo
08-25-2004, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
Only a one or two people see it as a problem

Actually in my case it's only methodology that is the issue. I am going to write to Topeka for a clarification because I'm serious about creating a new harness for the components I need and just installing it parallel with the stock harness if parallel wiring is legal.


Originally posted by rlearp:
The fact is, no matter what I do, there is no way you can argue I get a performance advantage. I just need to run my engine, read my gauges, and operate some lights. UNLESS you think that part of the British car experience means fighting in-car fires and I'll have a driving advantage in not having to deal with that! ;-0

BTW, in case you've never been told this before....

Do you know why the British drink warm beer?

They have Lucas refrigerators. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

dickita15
08-26-2004, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
What dickita said.
I always hear Mariachi music when I read his screen name, by the way...
"Another round of Dickitas for the whole table, por favor!"
K
crap, this was a unexpected turn of events http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

Ron Earp
08-26-2004, 09:31 AM
Yep, the old "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" idiom.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

Ron Earp
08-29-2004, 07:42 PM
Bet I have something none of you fellows have in your wiring harness.

In the door there is a courtesy light. But, I bet it is different from yours. The one on the Jensen, from the factory, is powered by a "C" cell battery!!!! No s*&t!

Never seen anything like it, but I'm finding a lot of stuff on this car that fits that category.

Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

Geo
08-29-2004, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by rlearp:
In the door there is a courtesy light. But, I bet it is different from yours. The one on the Jensen, from the factory, is powered by a "C" cell battery!!!! No s*&t!

Be sure to include that in your race car. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/tongue.gif <j/k>


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Knestis
08-30-2004, 11:03 AM
IT rules require that the battery you use be the same size as the original. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

K

RacerBill
08-30-2004, 11:41 AM
Remeber, however, that if the battery is in the cockpit, it must be enclosed in a box such as a marine battery cover!

Ron Earp
08-30-2004, 12:20 PM
Ummmm, just forget I ever mentioned it! ;-) I took the pieces of it and chucked'em - hope I don't get protested!

Mark LaBarre
09-06-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by rlearp:

I just need to run my engine, read my gauges, and operate some lights. .....

How about this spin on things. Ignitions and gauges are free, so you can wire them any way you want. So really, all you have to worry about are the lights, and even those "switches" are free, so...

Knestis
09-06-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Mark LaBarre:
...even those "switches" are free, so...

Which switches are free?

K

Mark LaBarre
09-11-2004, 09:04 AM
Switches are free, and Topeka has a very liberal idea of what a switch is.