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Ron Earp
08-10-2004, 07:36 AM
I was wondering about removing some parts from the Jensen Healey that I am attempting to prep for ITS. Specifically, the door panels.

I've read the rules and done a search, but I'm still not exactly sure if I should remove them or not.

It appears that if I have a roll cage with NASCAR type side intrusion bars then I can replace the panel with 0.060" aluminum and gut the door. I will have a cage built by a local fellow that does cages for various cars, but, how do I know this cage will fit the letter of the law that will allow removal of the door panel? Door panels don't weigh much, but, they are worth a LOT to JH folks and if I can sell them it'd help the race car fund.

I asked around at VIR this past weekend but it still seems a little bit of a grey area.


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

Diane
08-10-2004, 07:48 AM
It's not that grey, it's spelled out in the GCR and you actually said it. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif A quick search of nascar bar or door bar will give you a number of current threads on it.


Diane

[This message has been edited by Diane (edited August 10, 2004).]

Knestis
08-10-2004, 08:27 AM
Go back and revisit those pieces of the ITCS. Are the "remove door interior cards" and "cut into the door and remove the glass" clauses part of the same rule? I'm at work and don't have my GCR handy but I THINK that they are two separate issues, and that you can replace the stock pane with aluminum even without running the cage bars into the door. But check first and don't trust my memory.

K

dickita15
08-10-2004, 08:47 AM
kirk is right. you can sell the door panels and install .060 alum no mater what the cage. you can gut the drivers side door only if the cage extends into the door. two seperate issues
but kirk and diane are really right when they say don't take anyones word, even mine.
dick

ITSRX7
08-10-2004, 08:53 AM
I DO have the GCR in front of me and they are right.

- .060 aluminum replacment on both doors is legal no matter what style driver door bar you have.
- Gutting the door to facilitate NASCAR style bars on the drivers side is also legal
- Do not cut the stock support beam on the door - if you even have one on that car - I know my Sunbeam Tiger doesn't.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Knestis
08-10-2004, 09:50 AM
Interesting point here about building an "exotic" IT car - those parts that come off are worth way more on the open market than would be door cards off of a Civic, for example.

K

Ron Earp
08-10-2004, 09:54 AM
Thanks, that helps! I will re-read again, I was working off of memory this morning when I wrote the question and did not think to check the NASCAR question on the search.

Yes, the parts are worth a lot. I just got $114 for a set of sunvisors, $55 for a console, etc. IF I keep it up then the car might be free!! The bad part is the parts I have to buy tto get the car in racing condition are EXPENSIVE! Bushings, etc. are hard to find and not cheap when compared to a civic, so it probably all works out in the wash.
Ron

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

GT240sx
08-10-2004, 11:05 AM
I have a question related to removing parts not from the doors but from the dash "board". I have tried the search function and it did not turn up anything on the specific definition of dash "board" and the GCR doesn't specifically define it in their dictionary.

I know the dash "board" must remain complete except for any provisions made for the roll cage or driver instruments. What is a proper definition of dash "board"? Where does it end and interior trim pieces begin....below the glove box? below the steering column? or not until you get to a door or an A pillar? I have seen IT cars with nothing below the glove box except a heater core hanging by a zip tie, and I have seen IT cars with everything still under the dash including all trim pieces up to the center console. I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation.

Thanks,




------------------
Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

bldn10
08-10-2004, 11:07 AM
Also note that the rule does NOT say that you can gut the door only "to the extent necessary" to install a NASCAR-type cage. I.e., as long as a bar extends into the door, you can gut it.

Mike Spencer
08-10-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by GT240sx:
...What is a proper definition of dash "board"? Where does it end and interior trim pieces begin....

...I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation.

Thanks,



Russell,

I bought my car complete with a whole bunch of tech stickers on the rollbar. Therefore, I assume that what I have is "acceptable". At least down here in South East.

The door (or what's left of it) consists of what you can see from the outside, along with the sides (3 to 4 inches of sheet metal around the edge of where the door panel would be. That's it! (Kind of like a shallow pan on edge) When it's open it flops around all over the place. When it's closed, the NASCAR bars (padding) all but touch the door skin.

As far as the other part, it seems to me that the practical definition of "dashboard" is the horizontal surface above all the gauges, heater controls, etc. My car has zero factory gauges remaining. There are several where the speedo used to be and a few more where the heater controls/radio used to be. About the only remaining "stock" item is the glove box (which is held closed by two bolts with wingnuts on the ends).

I think the line in the GCR that gives all of us that latitude is; "Other than modifications made to mount instruments and provide for roll cage installation, the remainder of the dash “board” or panel shall remain intact."

Hope this helps.

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

ddewhurst
08-10-2004, 01:07 PM
***I bought my car complete with a whole bunch of tech stickers on the rollbar. Therefore, I assume that what I have is "acceptable". At least down here in South East.***

Mike, do you really beleive this is GOOD info to pass on to someone asking for what is legal & what is not legal ? The tech stickers mean NOTHING.

***The door (or what's left of it) consists of what you can see from the outside, along with the sides (3 to 4 inches of sheet metal around the edge of where the door panel would be. That's it! (Kind of like a shallow pan on edge) When it's open it flops around all over the place. When it's closed, the NASCAR bars (padding) all but touch the door skin.***

Mike, where is the "stock side impact beam" ?

Not that I know it all but when WE pass on info WE need to be sure the info WE pass on is good legal information.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

ps: Production doors are like foil flapping in the breeze with their original hinges.

Mike Spencer
08-10-2004, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Mike, do you really beleive this is GOOD info to pass on to someone asking for what is legal & what is not legal ? The tech stickers mean NOTHING.

David -

What I was attempting to address was the original question; "...I guess I am looking for a consensus on the matter, because it seems to be up to interpretation." I didn't take that to mean "legal". Sorry for the confusion. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I wholeheartedly agree, tech stickers don't mean anything IF you get protested. I was merely adding (perhaps wrongly) the voices of those past scrutineers to the "consensus" since they didn't seem to have a problem with it.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
ps: Production doors are like foil flapping in the breeze with their original hinges.

Again, I agree completely. I have said it before on this site, but not in this particular thread, so for the record: I AM A NEWBIE. Whatever I am able to offer is from the limited experience I have gained crewing and from crawling in, around and under the car I bought a few weeks ago. I own and have read the GCR, although I can't quote it from memory. I probably mentioned the door because I was quite surprised at how little was left.

I just looked at the GCR, and found the following; "The stock side impact beam, if equipped, and the outside door latch/lock operating mechanism shall not be removed or modified."

I WILL check, but apparently my car didn't have one. The outside latch was retained.

Looking back on the thread I probably should have researched a little more. I am one of the fortunate ones who has a PDF copy of the GCR on my computer at work, but who doesn't have a whole lot of practical experience in seeing how the rules get implemented.

Based on the additional information, I would (sincerely) be interested in knowing if you feel my car is illegal in any way.

Thanks!


------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

Greg Amy
08-10-2004, 02:47 PM
Hi, Mike.

I think the base error is that you're assuming that those tech stickers mean your car was deemed "legal" some time in the past. Unfortunately, that's not true. Those tech stickers simply mean that your car was found to be "safe" for competition.

You see, tech inspectors rarely make judgements based on legality when looking at your car, they are primarily looking for safety issues. First, it's far too difficult to memorize and be familiar with all various classifications and the allowed mods, and second, that's not their responsibility. Further, those stickers are issued, in most cases, without ever looking a the car; they're instead issued when you present your logbook and safety gear for inspection prior to each event. In reality, short of a protest or an impound, the only time a tech inspector sees your car is at the annual inspection which, again, is first and foremost a safety inspection.

So, please do not assume that your car is legal to the rules simply because it has "passed tech." It may very well be legal, but you need to be familiar with the rules to make that determination yourself.

GregA

ddewhurst
08-10-2004, 03:31 PM
Mike, I didn't intend to be a dick head. Sorry

I viewed your car identification which is a ITA RX-7 & presumed it would have a side impact beam. My car is a 1985 RX-7 & it has a side impact beam.

Hey 1st gen RX-7 folks did the 1979 through 1982 RX-7's have a side impact beam ? I know the 83 through 85 have them.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

GT240sx
08-10-2004, 04:02 PM
Mike

Thanks for the response. I have helped with tech inspection at IRP and our main concern was safety and as Greg said, there are too many classes to keep up with.

The problem seems to be in the interpretation of the rules and how everyone seems to have a different view on what the rule really says.

Greg
I hope you don't mind me asking and making a reference to the article…but I just got a chance to read the Grassroots Motorsports with your article in it and was looking at a picture of the driver's side of the car. The panels under the steering wheel are not there (maybe always, maybe just because the car was being worked on) and it also looked like the panels on the passenger side were removed also. Would you agree with Mike's definition of the dashboard?

I am asking these questions in an attempt to build a completely legal car, any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,




------------------
Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

Mike Spencer
08-10-2004, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by grega:
Hi, Mike.

I think the base error is that you're assuming that those tech stickers mean your car was deemed "legal" some time in the past. Unfortunately, that's not true...

Greg, you are absolutely correct. I DID assume that. What you say makes perfect sense, but I didn't stop to think about them having to deal with rules for 24 national classes, along with all the Regional Only classes (like IT).

I stand corrected.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Mike, I didn't intend to be a dick head. Sorry
I viewed your car identification which is a ITA RX-7 & presumed it would have a side impact beam. My car is a 1985 RX-7 & it has a side impact beam.

David, A) You weren't. B) It very well may have. I don't honestly know. I know it's an earlier model (the seller said '81) but a Carfax on the VIN number said 'no such number'.

(That's wierd! On a whim, I just went and looked at the log book. It lists the Make and Model, but no year.)

I'll be curious to see what others say about the '79 through '82.


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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

Greg Amy
08-10-2004, 04:34 PM
>>> I hope you don't mind me asking and making a reference to the [Grassroots Motorsports] article...

Not at all. In fact, here's some scans of it for reference (scanned and posted with permission of Grassroots Motorsports (http://www.grmotorsports.com)

High resolution version, 2.5MB: http://www.gatm.com/cars/nx2000/GRM-hires.pdf
Low resolution version, 460K: http://www.gatm.com/cars/nx2000/GRM-lores.pdf

>>> ...the panels under the steering wheel are not there...Would you agree with Mike's definition of the dashboard?

First and foremost, remember that rules interpretations from this bulletin board mean exactly what you pay for them: nothing. With that said, I refer you to the rules that state, and I paraphrase, '...all other interior trim panels, except the dashboard, may be removed..." I consider "the dashboard" to be the panel that bolts to the firewall, housing the instrument cluster, sometimes defroster and heater vents, sometimes the radio and heating controls. Therefore, any interior trim panel that does not meet the definition of "dashboard" is removeable.

I do not consider the under-dash trim panels to be anything other than that: trim panels. Same goes for the underdash glovebox and covers. Besides, that stuff is prone to coming loose and falling; don't want it to get tangled up in the feet or bouncing around during my 4-g turns.

While the center console can also be removed, it's unclear to me where the console ends and the dash begins, but I suggest that any console trim can be removed as well. However, for appearance sake, I chose to cut my center console trim off even with the bottom of the dashboard.

These interpretations are purely my own opinion and are not subject to any ongoing arguments from me.

GregA

GT240sx
08-10-2004, 04:56 PM
Greg

I fully understand that all of the interpretations of the rules on this site are just that...interpretations/opinions.

I appreciate your response and I agree with your dashboard definition. I keep trying to suppress the urge to scrap every useless piece of the car in order to stay within the rules. You guys have definitely helped.

Thanks,



------------------
Russell White
'85 Toyota Supra
ready for ITS in 8 months....maybe

CaptainWho
08-10-2004, 06:25 PM
Our '79 doesn't have a side impact bar in the door ... it's just a skin now since it has NASCAR style in-door intrusion bars. I'm not sure if our '80 has them or not.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

Speed Raycer
08-10-2004, 10:26 PM
Re: 79/80 RX7 side impact beams.... my 80 has them... whether or not they are the original doors... I have no idea.

Re: dashboard.... I once heard someone make the anology of ordering a new dashboard from a dealer... what would come in the box? Obviously, this changes from make to make, but it gives you a good starting point. Glove boxes or doors wont, lower trim panels wouldn't.

That question is my usual argument in the debate about where the dashboard ends and consoles begin (ex. 8?-85 RX7's with hacked off consoles).

------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it
http://www.izzyscustomcages.com/images/IzysLgoSm.jpg (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)
Izzy's Custom Cages (http://www.izzyscustomcages.com)

Knestis
08-10-2004, 10:38 PM
My dashboard decisions were similar to Greg's, it sounds like...

http://it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/itcockpit1.jpg

I took out the passive restraint knee pads under the dash since they are separate pieces of trim. I removed the center console and the trim panels that ran up to the dash bottom from it.

I left the ducting that was integral to the heater box, still have all of the stock instruments and switches, and put the airbag cover back on - for the time being, at least - because it was just so butt-ugly with it off.

I still have the ashtray even though it will come out for the enduro, because I drive the car to races and it makes a good place to keep the registration and proof of insurance. And the fuse for the transponder.

K

lateapex911
08-10-2004, 11:29 PM
I agree with the working definition of the "Dashboard" being what you get when you order one from the dealer.

I see a lot of RX-7s with hacked off consoles (which for those who don't know, are one molded hunk from the windsheild down to the shifter), and I always wonder why?

Did it save time to cut it off? Doubtful since doing something always takes more time than not doing something...

Did it make the car more reliable? Doubtful...a console rarely fails, and when it does it doesn't slow the car down....

Perhaps it lightened the car! Must be it. Maybe 1.3 pounds?

For 1.3 pounds, I'll leave it in...it looks like you don't care about legality with it hacked off, and I know a great place to find that 1.3 pounds, and 20 more.....the gym!

Besides, sharp hacked off corners right next to my knee doesn't seem like a smart idea.

(And to those curious about the RX-7 door bars, there was a mid year change in 80, IIRC, that made a lot of chassis type changes, any car from 81 and up has them I think. Should be easy to tell if they were removed by looking for the marks of removal: old spot welds, lack of undercoat coverage in a pattern, etc.)

Also, regarding the "NASCAR" door bars...read the GCR definition on them as well. I think it is no more than one horizontal bar that extends into the door cavity. And "horizontal" is open for discussion as well. As I recall the rulesmakers wanted to provide a "Prize" to entice builders to to extend protection into the door, no matter how minimal, and the prize was the entire door contents. A good deal, for sure!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited August 10, 2004).]

Geo
08-10-2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Speed Raycer:
Re: dashboard.... I once heard someone make the anology of ordering a new dashboard from a dealer... what would come in the box? Obviously, this changes from make to make, but it gives you a good starting point. Glove boxes or doors wont, lower trim panels wouldn't.

Best reasoning I've seen/heard on this issue.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Knestis
08-11-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
... As I recall the rulesmakers wanted to provide a "Prize" to entice builders to to extend protection into the door, no matter how minimal, and the prize was the entire door contents. A good deal, for sure!



Interesting. I'd never heard that explanation before...

K

Ron Earp
08-11-2004, 09:56 AM
Guess I should count myself lucky. With the old JH, it doesn't have all these bits that people are discussing or debating removal of. I've got no lower kick panels, lower dash, glove box, etc - just a simple dash with six instruments that must stay. Easy to read the rules on this one.

I am keeping in air con controls, since it is simply a single speed fan and slider flap to direct air up or through the vents. Can't weigh much and might help in wet conditions. Simple cars are good in this respect.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

Knestis
08-11-2004, 11:27 AM
Your wiring situation won't be nearly as heinous as some of ours, either.

"Let's see - this is ABS. Or is it the wiring for cruise that my car didn't come with? ARGH."

K

Mike Spencer
08-11-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
...Also, regarding the "NASCAR" door bars...read the GCR definition on them as well. I think it is no more than one horizontal bar that extends into the door cavity. And "horizontal" is open for discussion as well. As I recall the rulesmakers wanted to provide a "Prize" to entice builders to to extend protection into the door, no matter how minimal, and the prize was the entire door contents. A good deal, for sure!



Jake, you scared the weeee out of me! I have two horizontal (OK, I give up. How is THAT up for discussion?) bars. So, I went and looked it up. <Whew!>

"NASCAR-Style Door Bars - If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop"

------------------
Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

Ron Earp
08-11-2004, 01:40 PM
Three fuses. I'm using what wiring I can from the car since I must leave the harness, but it is very simple. One car in which you really could use the racer panel - Power, Start, Lights, Wiper and that is it. If fact, I will use one of these but connect the exisiting harness to it.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey

lateapex911
08-11-2004, 08:08 PM
Originally posted by Mike Spencer:
Jake, you scared the weeee out of me! I have two horizontal (OK, I give up. How is THAT up for discussion?) bars. So, I went and looked it up. <Whew!>

"NASCAR-Style Door Bars - If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop"



Sorry Mike! good read, I should have been lass "casual" in my writing! I meant that you don't HAVE to have any more than ONE horizontal door bar that intrudes into the cavity to qualify as a "NASCAR" door bar. You COULD have 5....if you wanted.

The "horizontal"?

Well, I've seen people read the book, think "NASCAR", and build these elaborate cages of tubes, all 90 degrees to each other, thinking how safe they are. Trouble is the whole assembly attaches to the car in essentially two spots: tha base of the front down tube, and the base of the main roll hoop. I've seen the results of T bone hits in these cars...the whole affair rips from the floor and swings into the car like an over head door, but swinging in and up. Bad news.

I've also seen some nice interpretations. (I wasn't brave enough to follow my ideas when I was building my own car). These cages use a diagonal from the main hoop down to the front downtubes base that projects into the door. Than another to form an "X". A horizontal runs along the rocker, and is joined to the "X" intesection by a short vertical. The lower node of the short vertical has a cross car tube attach to it that joins a tube on the other side of the car. Won't work in every car, but....

I think thats a better, and legal way to go. Less tubes, but better intrusion protection. And better stiffening as well. But the term "horizontal" becomes the crux of the issue.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

CaptainWho
08-12-2004, 12:56 AM
So, what's the feeling on doing a "X" door "bar" with gussets (like many of the SCCA Speed Challenge cars have), maybe "boxing" it with a horizontal bar up around the height of the base of the stock door window (and maybe another at the base of the stock door)? Sure, it'd be heavier, but when I'm betting my backsides, I'll take the extra few pounds. I don't really want to put in a "Petty bar" (I think that's what it's called) because I want to retain the option of putting in an passenger seat for instructed DEs.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

Knestis
08-12-2004, 10:16 PM
I think non-NASCAR door bars are a great idea...

http://www.it2.evaluand.com/gti/images/cage08.jpg

I don't like the conservation-of-energy math offered by door bars that extend into the doors, leaving only a few thou of sheetmetal between an incoming car and the driver.

It takes about a nanosecond for the driver (or parts thereof) to use up that extra 6" of distance in the event of a side impact. And then, there's been no attenuation of the kinetic energy in that lump trying to drive through your door.

I kept the doors intact, including the door cards with nice soft arm rests and pockets. All of that stuff will use up energy and I'm confident that intrusion will be handled with my design as well as with any.

K

CaptainWho
08-12-2004, 11:06 PM
That's almost exactly what I was thinking of, except without the bar that's nearly vertical on the right, to the left of the A-pillar bar.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

Geo
08-13-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by CaptainWho:
That's almost exactly what I was thinking of, except without the bar that's nearly vertical on the right, to the left of the A-pillar bar.



Actually, that tube is critical to a strong cage with the X design Kirk used. Without the top front of the X attaching at the bend in the front support, you have an unsupported bend in a tube. In a crash Doc Newton says "fold here." But with Kirk's tube supporting the "halo" it's supported and is less likely to collapse.

Re: NASCAR bars vs X....

Greg Amy pointed out very well a year or so ago that the failure mode of NASCAR bars is to bend back inward and the support they have comes only through mass. Mass for mass the X is stronger. If you have an X with two straight tubes, to make it fail you would have to literally rip the X from the cage or rip the cage from the car because it would take tremendous energy to stretch the tubes along their length.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com