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four27
05-18-2004, 06:45 PM
Can anyone tell me if they see much warning of yellow flags to cars behind you by giving some kind of hand signal? Had an interesting situation this weekend where the car in front of me waved his hands up high alot. I thought he was signaling he was broke so I went around him. He says he was making sure I saw yellow flags. After going around him and seeing that he kept going I realized he was trying to signal me for something else and fearing a penalty, I let him go by me, all under double yellow. I then proceeded to get around him in last part of race. I have never seen anyone warn of a yellow flag ahead of me before and in light of the fact that the GCR does not make provisions for warning a fellow driver of a yellow but it does indicate that raising your hand is how you show you are broke down and it is ok to go around.

I am told in oval track and other forms of racing outside of SCCA that warning of flags is common but not in SCCA type racing. I got penalized one racing position.

Any feedback.

joeg
05-18-2004, 06:52 PM
Unless he pulled over and basically stopped to let you by, you simply cannot be passing under a yellow.

I give waives all the time if the incident is in front of me and viewable. They are not intended as signals to "come on by" to the cars in back of me.

dickita15
05-18-2004, 07:19 PM
I too use hand signal to alert the person behind me something is happening in front. I guess I never thought about it being percieved as "I am broken"
dick

lateapex911
05-18-2004, 07:52 PM
I have always given the hand wave as a ..."Heads up dude...I am slowing in a spot that usually don't slow in" FYI kind of gesture.

It's up to you to figure why that may be....and what to do about it.

If I want you by, I will point clearly with my finger.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

RKramden
05-18-2004, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
I guess I never thought about it being percieved as "I am broken"

And the way one could tell the difference between your being broken and not broken? :-)

IIRC, there are five times that hand signals are to be used (according to the GCR):

Waive-off during a start, (7.5.9)
Signaling to enter the pits, (9.1.3.A)
Indicating the side to be used for a pass, (9.1.3.B)
Indicating the car is disabled and not going to move, (9.1.3.C)
and with a disabled car not able to keep pace during a full course yellow (9.2.2, 9.4.2.B)

Can't think of any others right now.

Quickshoe
05-18-2004, 08:20 PM
Jake hit the nail on the head.

Most forms of racing ask that drivers get a hand up in the air ANYTIME they are moving much slower than others might anticipate or are preparing to slow much more than others might anticipate.

Could be for a number of reasons.

Some unsportsman-like people have been known to use it during a start to get others behind them to check up for a second until they realize that the guy with his hand in the air has just jumped out to a 2 car length lead...

That's the kind of guy you accidently tap as he's leaving the track with a hand up in the air. When he asks you later what that was all about and how come you didn't back off you just remind him of the story about the little boy who cried wolf http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

apr67
05-19-2004, 09:10 AM
I use the Hand in the Air in a Fist to indicated I am slowing down, usually for a double yellow, or when exiting the track.

Why? Because some idiots (for example this weekend at Moroso) never see the GD flags.

This is a standard racing signal from where I stand, and if I were broken, I would pull to the extreme edge of the track and POINT you by.

grjones1
05-19-2004, 10:35 AM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]I use the Hand in the Air in a Fist to indicated I am slowing down, usually for a double yellow, or when exiting the track.

In my 30 years, a hand in the air means "I am entering the pits" or "I am disabled." A point indicates on which side you expect me to pass- that's it, you are not helping the guy behind trying to communicate any other information. A hand in the air, fist or otherwize, has always indicated either "follow me in" or a wave by. Raising your hand to indicate flags are out is indecipherable and you are only begging to be passed. Let the driver behind observe the flags. If he's trying to figure out what you are telling him, he'll probably never see them.
Stewards who don't understand this have never raced or they raced poorly, and they are looking for an excuse to enforce rules without understanding what might be going on out there.

Most drivers develop the skill to handle an incident, i.e., miss an obstacle on the course or judge how to miss a spinning car and refrain from passing until after an incident. If we are signaled in an adequate fashion by the flaggers, we are given time to accomplish all of this. If we are not, we must handle the situation as best we can. A late flag in my experience is why most often people mistakenly pass on yellow and not that we are disregarding the rules. Sometimes we might be given credit for negotiating the incident even in light of passing a car that has slowed too drastically and has created a more complex situation than was necessary.

Yes we slow for yellows to ensure control of the car, but as we all must know "control of the car" is not always decelerating to a snail's pace.

I recommend stewards consider there's more going on out there than always meets the eye especially the eye of cornerworkers who have never enjoyed a race lap in the driver's seat of a race car. And they need to pay as much attention to training their flag people as trying to find excuses to penalize drivers. Then we might all get along more safely.
At any rate: let the drivers drive and the flaggers flag.
GRJ
I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ

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Knestis
05-19-2004, 11:35 AM
I think this is consistent with what I've seen here but I would never raise a hand for a "normal" yellow situation - double or otherwise.

I would do so if I had to slow up suddenly and was worried that the person behind me might run the heck into my back bumper - same as coming into the pits or under a wave-off situation at a start. But note that this is about what MY CAR is doing, not about what the flags are doing.

I saw more than a few instances of karters using "hand fakes" on starts. "Oh, sorry dude - I thought they were waving it off."

K

grjones1
05-19-2004, 11:57 AM
[quote]Originally posted by Knestis:
[Hi K,
Now K if you are last on the grid why are you botering to signal those behind you. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
As I said in another post, I really enjoyed meeting you and your wife at VIR.
And guys, K wasn't really last.
G

apr67
05-19-2004, 03:12 PM
My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits. I don't bother to look in my mirror, becuase slowing down is the important thing to do. If other cars are close to me, they may be blocked from seeing the flag, and by paying attention you just might save yourself from a DQ for a PUY.

If someone sticks a hand in the air under a double yellow and your first thought is 'point by' then I doubt you are fully paying attention. You should be thinking "maybe he sees something I dont", or "Big Bad Doo doo ahead". After a few seconds, you can see if the car is falling back from other competitiors and asses what the hand signal may really mean.

m glassburner
05-19-2004, 03:27 PM
lets see... the single finger salute...helps releive tension.point-by please pass me on the left or right....the left fist out window im pulling the pits.....long straight...karate chop foward stay with me bump draft if you dare....guys thats enough for me!!corner workers are there for a reason..let them do their job if a driver is used to you waving for a yellow....when you dont do it once.....well i dont want to be there...mike g. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/confused.gif

grjones1
05-19-2004, 03:34 PM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits.

But APR, you don't appear to understand: the GCR states what a raised hand means: "I'm pitting" or "I'M disabled." I have no obligation or time to interpret your hand signals other than what I have been directed they mean. Let's get this straight: my reason for being on a racetrack is to pass the guy I'm behind- that's what racing is all about. Yes safely, but not safely by being a mind reader but by your knowing what the general rules direct. Give me a reason for getting by you by giving me a pass sign and guess what, I'm going to pass.

Please in the event of a yellow flag, I'd rather you keep both hands on the wheel and control your car than your trying to communicate with me something I am responsible for knowing all by myself. If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences.
GRJ

racer_tim
05-19-2004, 03:42 PM
I normally wave my hand "inside" the cockpit to warn the person behind me that I see something ahead of me. Whether it be a Double Yellow, or a emergency vehicle, etc.

When I disable myself, I don't "wave" it but try to get it out between the window net and the a-pillar and hold it straight up so they can see it.

That's what I do.



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

spnkzss
05-19-2004, 03:51 PM
Now I've only been racing for a little over a year, but anytime a hand goes up it means watch out for whatever might happen. Typically there to make you get out of "racing mode". A finger pointed means pass on which ever side it's on. The GCR might not spell it out that way, but safety ALWAYS comes before winning. At least at the regional level we are just racing for a $15 trophy, not millions of $$$.

It seems to work just fine.

grjones1
05-19-2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by apr67:
[B]My hand goes up as I slow down for the double yellow, or entering the pits.

But APR, you don't appear to understand: the GCR states what a raised hand means: "I'm pitting" or "I'M disabled." I have no obligation or time to interpret your hand signals other than what I have been directed they mean. Let's get this straight: my reason for being on a racetrack is to pass the guy I'm behind- that's what racing is all about. Yes safely, but not safely by being a mind reader but by your knowing what the general rules direct. Give me a reason for getting by you by giving me a wave by and guess what, I'm going to pass.

Please in the event of a yellow flag, I'd rather you keep both hands on the wheel and control your car than your trying to communicate with me something I am responsible for knowing all by myself. If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences. If you get bumped, protest me for rough driving, but be darn sure you are not setting yourself up for having slowed too rapidly for conditions - it works both ways. You as a driver have an obligation to act appropriately in a given situation and slamming on your brakes at the waving of a yellow flag is not appropriate, nor is waving your hand and expecting me to know you mean something different from what the GCR tells me you are supposed to mean.
If someone is on your rear bumper coming into a yellow it's a tight situation and your response is slow just enough to be under control but not enough to get slammed. It's tough but that's what racers do: handle tough situations.
GRJ

grjones1
05-19-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by racer_tim:
I normally wave my hand "inside" the cockpit to warn the person behind me that I see something ahead of me. Whether it be a Double Yellow, or a emergency vehicle, etc.

When I disable myself, I don't "wave" it but try to get it out between the window net and the a-pillar and hold it straight up so they can see it.

That's what I do.


Tim,
I strongly suggest you keep both arms inside the car and both hands on the wheel as often as possible, especially in a yellow flag situation.

I'm beginning to wonder what they teach you guys at driving schools these days.
GRJ

racer_tim
05-19-2004, 04:08 PM
grjones1, I didn't say it was right, I just said it's what I do. I went through drivers school in 1993 and started out as an F&C member in 1978, so I'm not your average newbee.

BTW, I also drive a FWD with a locked front diff. I DO know how hard it is to drive with only 1 hand on the wheel and turn. I failed to mention that I only do this going straight.




------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

Quickshoe
05-19-2004, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]If you saw the flag I probably did too. If not then I suffer the consequences.
GRJ

GRJones,

That is the problem. If you are glued to my arse and there is "big bad doo doo" ahead which requires me to do something more drastic than a waiving yellow would (which may not even be out yet). We could both, in addition to those involved in the big bad doo doo ahead suffer the consequences.

Some of us only rely on what is in the GCR to control our actions. Others use our experience and common sense to supplement what is in the book. Unfortunately they can't teach common sense and experience at a school.

spnkzss
05-19-2004, 04:36 PM
Then maybe the best thing to do under a yellow is to keep both hands on the wheel, lift slightly and get off line. That way you are doing something to keep from getting punted, and you are giving the driver on your tail a chance to see the yellow if they didn't already. If anything, you go off line far enough that will click with the driver behind you that something is not "normal" (as far as normal goes with racing) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

planet6racing
05-19-2004, 04:51 PM
How about, keep both hands on the wheel, look ahead, find the situation that warrants the yellow, and act accordingly?

If the corner workers are like those at Road America last year, they will even point you to which side of the track you should be on to avoid the situation...

And, how are you guys getting your arms out the window? I couldn't do that unless I remove the window net (seeing as how that is its purpose...).

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

grjones1
05-19-2004, 05:08 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Quickshoe:
[B] GRJones,

That is the problem.
OK guys one more time. (And I wish "1993" didn't sound like a newbie to me.)
My reaction to a raised hand is that the driver is having trouble with his car and he wants me to go by safely. That's what the GCR intends for a raised hand to mean nothing else. It derives from the old days I think (and still now I think with production people driving roadsters) that when a car has spun out and is stalled on the race track, a driver indeed raises both hands to indicate that he is unable to move his car and he will remain stationary.

Now, whenever I approach a corner involved in a dice or otherwise, I try to check all conditions: flags, rabbits crossing the track, altered surface conditions, or the guy in front of me abruptly changing lines to disrupt my attempts to pass him- all this stuff. I am not looking in the cockpit of his car to see if he has something he wants to report. I see a flag and I slow just enough to have better control than I would have otherwise in order to avoid whatever the flagman is trying to tell me about. If I am on someone's rear end, I look for flags to make sure the pass I am comtemplating will be made safely. Your waving your arm, or fist, or middle-finger is pretty much treated like early brake lights: a sign that you are trying to distract me and pretty much ignored except as an opportunity for me to take advantage of your doing something that's keeping you from going through the corner correctly. If you know what you are about and that's negotiating that turn successfully regardless of the conditions you don't worry about communicating with the other driver, you've got too much else to manage. "Going beyond the GCR" has nothing to do with it - behaving like a race driver is what it has to do with. And if you are worrying about what the other guy sees or doesn't see you are not paying attention to what you should be paying attention to: maintaining car control and being ready for any eventuality. Waving your arm ain't getting it no matter what your misguided good intentions may be.
G

grjones1
05-19-2004, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
GRJones,

Unfortunately they can't teach common sense and experience at a school.


Obviously.
G

apr67
05-19-2004, 09:43 PM
Yea, you guys know the GCR pretty well.

How about sections:
7.5.9
blahb blah blah... This will inform the drivers to proceed on another pace lap. All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps. Drivers will raise one hand to indicate that the start is aborted. (Except as provided in 7.6.2)

9.1.3. Hand Signals A. Before entering the pits from the course, the driver should signal by raising an arm. B. An overtaken driver shall point to the side on which an overtaking driver should pass. C. The driver of a stalled car shall raise both arms to indicate that he or she shall not move until the course is clear.

9.2.2 Procedure When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle. Drivers of disabled cars should seek assistance at the nearest corner station or pit at the first opportunity. All cars shall pass the incident area well under control and in single file.

9.4.2
DOUBLE YELLOW, DISPLAYED AT ALL STATIONS — Cars may also pass other cars that are disabled and cannot keep the pace as signified by a raised arm on the part of the driver of the disabled car (see GCR 9.2.2.).

apr67
05-19-2004, 09:53 PM
I have seen many incidents where drivers don't know that a double yellow is out and are way to racy near the incident.

Maybe we should just let them get in trouble. But what if a simple 'hey look' hand signal (pick one) could save someone from getting hurt, or killed, do you think it warrants investigation regardless of how long you have done this some other (wrong?) way?

BTW. I also take a hand off the wheel to shift, sometimes in the middle of a corner.

Alan

steve s
05-19-2004, 09:56 PM
i may be wrong and correct me . there is no passing under a double yellow even if you are waved by a slow moving racecar it's still considered passing.if he's disabled or broken he needs to be off the track.i was told this by a chief steward.

------------------
steve saney
it-7 /it-a #34

Knestis
05-19-2004, 10:04 PM
Originally posted by spnkzss:
Then maybe the best thing to do under a yellow is to keep both hands on the wheel, lift slightly and get off line. ...

I'm not sure that moving off line and putting more one more variable into the mix is going to make the situation any better. This sounds a little to me like going somewhere unexpected when being lapped and is only going to strengthen any illusion that you are busted and pulling over.

The "something broke" interpretation of a raised/waving hand should be accompanied by a sudden loss of speed - one greater (I think) than is generally appropriate for double yellows coming out on any corner other than where a visible problem is.

If the track IS in fact going full-course yellow, the decision to pass that car "stricken" car doesn't have to be made in an instant: I'll have time for him to make it truly clear that he's busted before I close up to the pack.

If yellow flags are out - and I should see them, right? - the default setting MUST be "don't pass" and err on the side of losing some time relative to the front of the pack as things form up for the restart.

Nothing changes, to my way of thinking, if the person in front of me raises a hand during any of the above.

K

ITSRX7
05-19-2004, 11:02 PM
Of all the pieces quoted from the GCR, none direct us to use hand signals to signal a yellow flag situation.

While I think we all appreciate your procative concern, it is simply confusing.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

Quickshoe
05-20-2004, 12:37 AM
If one is looking far enough ahead, you'll see the incident a nanosecond after I do and before I could get a hand up in the air anyways. Even after I got a hand up you wouldn't be looking there anyway. No harm no foul. I am thinking of incidents where it is right there in front of us prior to the flags coming out.

I only see a need to slow more than someone might expect, and therefore raise a hand if

A) I had a massive mechanical failure that was scrubbing speed faster than simply lifting would.

B) There is big doo doo unfolding in front of me that is going to require some type of an evassive manuever or braking to avoid.

To clarify my point many posts ago, I get a hand up in the air ANYTIME that I am going to slow more quickly than the guy behind might expect. Even a RED flag doesn't require us to jump on the binders and come to a screeching hault.

We need to remember that some of us don't have brake lights and suspensions that don't cause our cars to go into a massive nose dive when we brake. The only sign that someone is slowing suddenly is the closing rate and if your are really close that is sometimes too late.

But then again this is an IT forum so we all have brake lights and nose dive cars.

JLawton
05-20-2004, 08:22 AM
This brings to mind a situation I was in. I was coming to the end of a straight when I could see two cars begin to spin in the next corner and it was obvious that at best, the track would be 50% blocked. I had a car in a faster class screaming up on me. I could not have cared less if he thought I was signaling to let him pass, I could not have cared less if he thought I was disabled, I franticly waved my hand inside the car because I did not want him to jam his bumper up my a**. All this was happening before and during the flaggers getting the yellow out.

I also have a FWD car with no power steering and I have NO issues controlling it with one hand on the wheel (how does everyone else shift???)

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

whenry
05-20-2004, 09:23 AM
The rules may not provide for it but I will always give an arm waving warning if I see a big event in front of me that the car behind me may not have seen. It is the right adn proper thing to do. We are all in this together and need to try to help in any way that we can to keep the track safer.
Does my waving have any "legal" significance? No but it may help you to recognize the situation and respond in an appropriate manner. If you think that I am trying to take advantage of you or the situation, that matter can be resolved in the paddock.
FWIW I have feigned a disabling condition under pace car conditions by pulling over at a flag station and motioning the car behind me to pass allowing him to catch up to the car in front that was in his class so that he might have a better chance to pass him when the track went green. My car suddenly refired and I joined the line behind him. It didnt help him and after allowing them to race for a lap or two, I passed them both before the race was over. I didnt lose any positions in my class and in my mind, it was the right thing to do. YMMV

gran racing
05-20-2004, 10:05 AM
I just put my hazards on.

(O.k. So I really don't do this.)

The waiving - could be a bit confusing. But it really depends on the circumstances and what part of the track it is happening. Maybe on a straight.

If I see something and have concerns that the driver behind me might not see it, I may lightly tap the brakes to get the person's attention. This way I'm not taking my hands off the wheel more than I have to (esp. in a corner) and it still brings attention that something is going on.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

biovic
05-20-2004, 10:08 AM
In reference to the double yellow flag situation, drivers should obviously be aware that something is different than full racecourse clear, but it does not mean that there is always an incident or danger ahead. A single waving yellow would indicate danger, and they almost always preceed a double yellow. I see it too often where cars will slow down significantly when the double yellow is displayed and doddle around the track, and althogh we drivers should use more caution, it is also our responsibility to catch up and group with the leader in preparation for a re-start.
If the double yellow is displayed at all corners, we drivers usually *should) see them in a short amount of time anyways, and would know at that point to slow (a little) and not pass under those flag conditions.

RSTPerformance
05-20-2004, 02:39 PM
If a person has their hand up because their car is disabled, I would hope one would assume that the car would be going significantly slower than the rest of the field, or current situation required.

Thus to me the situation that started this discussion is black and white, unless we are missing information.

Major assumptions, and please correct if I am incorrect in any of the assumptions.

1: The car in front puts up hand, and slows for full course yellow, but does continue at a reasonable full course yellow flag pace

2: Second car (four27) doesn't see yellow (?) but sees a hand up from a driver and assumes that the car is disabled so passes?

I don't understand 2...
If the second driver didn't see yellows, shame on him, GUILTY.
If the second car saw the yellow and if the first car didn't slow to below normal yellow conditions, and the second car passed why did you pass, shame on you again, GUILTY. A disabled car should be well off any pace yellow or not.

The first car needs not show a hand, although if he/she does, then the second driver better be well aware of his/her surroundings to be sure he/she is exactly sure what is going on, especially if he/she is planning to pass.

3: The new first car realizes that he passed under yellow, so then signals the new second car to pass him back. THAT IS A PASS UNDER YELLOW, second car also GUILTY.
This again is a very bad situation... I have seen many people loose races because of this. Corner workers missed the first pass and catch the second one... The sorta innocent person gets a stop and go penalty and their race is done, all because everyone was confused, and multiple people went against the rules and passed under yellow.

Simple resolution, DON'T PASS UNDER YELLOW UNLESS YOU ARE CERTAIN AND OVER OBVIOSE TO VIEWERS OF WHAT IS GOING ON!!!

I protested 8 or was it 9 cars last year for passing under yellow. That was after numerous events (well every event at Lime Rock) getting passed and no one noticing except my video camera and me. People please be aware of Yellow flags, they are for our friends and ours safety.

I would really like to know if the original driver new that their were double yellows before or after he made the pass...

Raymond Blethen

PS: Did you both get a penalty?

grjones1
05-20-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by steve s:
i may be wrong and correct me . there is no passing under a double yellow even if you are waved by a slow moving racecar it's still considered passing.if he's disabled or broken he needs to be off the track.i was told this by a chief steward.


The chief steward was wrong and really doesn't have any business being a chief steward unless of course his rules supercede the GCR.
If you get a wave by from a car in front during an all course yellow, you may pass. The rule has been quoted twice here.

Let's consider another situation: You are approaching a turn with a competitor on your tail and a yellow flag appears. You hit your brakes as usual to approach the turn a little more slowly than usual and your pedal goes to the floor. You go into the turn knowing you will leave the course because you cannot slow enough to negotiate the turn or whatever incident has occurred. You signal the driver with a raised hand as you should because something is wrong with your car. Now if I'm behind and I read your signal as some would have it that you are simply waving warning of the yellow flag, I would logically have to follow you off course (can't pass on yellow, wave sign was just an indicator of the yellow). But if you are using the wave as you should to tell me that you are having a problem, I do the right thing and maintain my car on course (passing you) and missing whatever else is out there. I don't follow you off course because of the yellow, I have been waved by. Get it?
That's why we must all understand that a raised hand is a wave by (except on a start to signal a no start), not a "danger ahead" signal.
There's a thing called momentum that keeps a car going at a pretty good clip (especially if the driver has disengaged his clutch and not braked) even when an engine may have died and especially when brakes have failed. So a car may not have had time to show abrupt change of pace immediately upon the driver's raised hand. Because of this I don't buy waiting until the car indicates a definite disablement. (The driver may be looking for a place to park and knows better than to decelerate too rapidly). If he raises his hand I'm going to assume he wants me to go around him. That's the intent of the rule and always has been - for good reasons.
G

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Quickshoe
05-20-2004, 07:46 PM
If I lost my brakes approaching a corner which required the use of brakes you wouldn't be passing me on the track, so it isn't an issue.

Further, I raise my hand if I am slowing more so than the guy/gal behind is expecting. Clearly my loss of brakes wouldn't cause this to happen.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 20, 2004).]

planet6racing
05-20-2004, 08:01 PM
OK, let me get this straight:

1) No brakes, headed off course.
2) One hand is off the wheel signalling another driver.

Umm, if I don't have brakes, the last thing I am worried about is the person behind me. I will be blowing the motor to save the car and my butt.

Common sense would say that, even if you are departing the course, I'm not going with you. I'm driving my line, checking the flags myself and turning when I'm supposed to. If you go off because you missed your turn in point, well, thank you, because I just picked up a spot.

I don't think any more discussion is going to change anyone's mind. But, if you wave, just make sure you do it so I can see it in my camera and the corner workers see it too. That way, when I go around you I have all the evidence I need when I pull out the GCR.



------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

grjones1
05-20-2004, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
OK, let me get this straight:

Bill,
I'm with you and I was attempting to present a scenario that explains why we don't wave just to indicate yellow (and I didn't do it well). Oh well, what I've learned from all this is that I can no longer depend on newer drivers and stewards to understand the rules the way I have always understood them. Maybe then I'll have the opportunity to clear it all up in an appeal because I know I'm going to be following the rules as I read them. Wave at me and I'll pass you.

G

ITSRX7
05-20-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I don't think any more discussion is going to change anyone's mind. But, if you wave, just make sure you do it so I can see it in my camera and the corner workers see it too. That way, when I go around you I have all the evidence I need when I pull out the GCR.

Exactly. Like I said above, thanks for the extra concern but current documented proceedure tells me you are disabled. The last think I want is some of my 'competition' to think I will respond to that type of warning. People will use it to their advantage. It's my job to see the flags. It's your job to warn me of your lack of speed' due to something *I CAN'T SEE* - like a broken car.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

apr67
05-20-2004, 10:15 PM
Whatever.

Current rules are not sufficient, otherwise people would not be put into a wall under double yellow. Continue to live in Egypt (DeNile) if you wish.

Me holding a Fist up will not be considered a
'please pass' by any competent steward. They may take it to mean "White power", but sheesh.

Alan

planet6racing
05-21-2004, 12:14 AM
If people are being put into walls while under double yellow, your steward needs to be pulling some licenses.



------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Tak
05-21-2004, 12:40 AM
If I'm dicing, and something happens ahead, I wave an arm in the cockpit (briefly). It is both a signal to the driver(s) behind and to the corner workers that I see the situation.

Several drivers in front of me have done this and I've appreciated it. Now I return the favor. I also think it has saved me from getting rear ended at least once.

BTW, my reaction when I see an arm up is to pull out from behind the car in front of me. That gives me more options. I do not automatically back off.

When I'm the one signaling, I put my car where I need to go, at the appropriate pace (often that is race pace).

Remember that the no passing zone is from the flag to the incident.

Tak
#29 ITA
SFR SCCA

mgyip
05-21-2004, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by Tak:
If I'm dicing, and something happens ahead, I wave an arm in the cockpit (briefly). It is both a signal to the driver(s) behind and to the corner workers that I see the situation.

I tend to do the same thing but apparently, from the aforementioned discussion, such a move is stupid, potentially misleading to other drivers and not recognized (and thus disallowed) by the GCR. Next time I have a double-yellow situation, I'm gonna "race" the other cars trying to pass me so that my actions won't be misconstrued as being less than uber-competitive.

dave parker
05-21-2004, 10:53 AM
Well i have to wade in here.
"I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ"
I find this statement to be HIGHLY ironic coming from the guy who hit me in the back on the start of the saturday race at VIR. No there was no yellow flag. Both my hands were on the wheel.Perhaps the thirty plus cars trying to funnel through T1 with a car in the grass on the outside had something to do with why we all slowed down. I double checked before and after the race to make sure my brake lights worked.Yes,apologies were made and accepted. No,I am not mad about it. But lets all remember to do what we say we are going to do.

"I'm beginning to wonder what they teach you guys at driving schools these days.
GRJ"
I invite you to come and instruct at the DC Region drivers school on October 30th and 31st at Summit Point. As an instructor you can see first hand what the students are being taught and why. You will also have a chance to offer your years of expirience and give your input. You never know, you might influence someone greatly and learn something in the process. Please feel free to contact me so that we can let the group chief instructor know that you will be attending.
Flame away.
Have Fun
dave parker
wdcr itc#97

JohnRW
05-21-2004, 11:45 AM
In the open cockpit SCCA world, (sports racers & lawn-dart formula cars) it's pretty common for drivers to signal trouble ahead by raising an arm/open hand and waiving back and forth. Doesn't necessarily mean that car will brake or even lift much, but it's a general "get your head out of your ass" signal, that those of us behind appreciate.

Spend some time running around with your butt 3" off the ground and you'll start to understand the visibility problems that those cars have. IT cars aren't that much different. Anything that says "HEY - PAY ATTENTION !" to cars behind you is a good thing.

Cite all the GCR sections you want. Those of us who will wave (especially in practice and qualifying) understand that it is a courtesy (and sometime self-preservation), and is appreciated and understood by most drivers. Did it once, witnessed it 3 times last weekend alone, at the Nelson Ledges Nat'l.

Those with a clue do understand what it means.

planet6racing
05-21-2004, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by JohnRW:


Those with a clue do understand what it means.

Alright, I'm going to nip this in the bud. Let's not take this down the name calling road or anything like that. This has been a fair discussion of the hand waving and, although heated at times, has not been personal. Let's keep it that way.


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

JohnRW
05-21-2004, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
[BThis has been a fair discussion of the hand waving and, although heated at times, has not been personal.
[/B]

Please explain how this is "personal". It might be a sweeping generalization, but it certainly isn't "personal".

grjones1
05-21-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by dave parker:
Well i have to wade in here.
"I must add that usually brake lights on the guy in front of me is a pretty good indication that he is slowing, and of course my depth perception is still good enough to let me know when I am closing at a faster rate than normal. Hand signals in these events really are superfluous.
GRJ"
I find this statement to be HIGHLY ironic coming from the guy who hit me in the back on the start of the saturday race at VIR. But lets all remember to do what we say we are going to do.

Dave,
I doubt seriously you were the only one that received a gentle nudge in the Group 7 melee at Turn 1 at VIR. I beleive I was touched myself, but I didn't expect any apologies in a situation like that. I expressed regret that I was unable to check up in time to keep from patting your rear end, but that was the extent of my "apology." If you think for an instant that your car is never going to receive a "touch" especially in the large fields in which we are contending, you are in the wrong sport.(By the way had you waved your arm the same thing would have occurred.)
I'm pretty much amazed that someone who filed a wholly unsupported protest for "witnessing" a rough driving incident when the supposed victim of the incident testified that he was never touched would have the nerve to suggest I don't do what I say. I never said I don't make mistakes, if that were the case I'd be driving Formula 1 and not IT. But when I touch someone it's usually an error, not an attempt to push him out of the way. I wish I could say the same for the number of times I've been driven off the racetrack (and by the way, I protested only one when the individual peppered my rear end three times - and the protest was upheld.)

I invite you to come and instruct at the DC Region drivers school.

My services have always been available to instruct, I've only been invited by NASA. I'll be glad to extend those services at the October school. And I always look forward to learning something, perhaps others should keep such an open mind.
G. Robert Jones ITC 22

grjones1
05-21-2004, 02:57 PM
[quote]Originally posted by JohnRW:
[B]In the open cockpit SCCA world, (sports racers & lawn-dart formula cars) it's pretty common for drivers to signal trouble ahead by raising an arm/open hand and waiving back and forth.

In your world, where I beleive some cars don't have brake lights and reaction times may not be up to the quickness of the cars, excessive hand signals might be necessary. In the IT world, hand signals that are beyond GCR direction are detrimental (in my opinion).
GRJ

mgyip
05-21-2004, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
In your world, where I beleive some cars don't have brake lights and reaction times may not be up to the quickness of the cars, excessive hand signals might be necessary. In the IT world, hand signals that are beyond GCR direction are detrimental (in my opinion).

Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light. In the IT world, if hand signals beyond GCR direction are detrimental then the corner workers and stewards should immediately commence a "hand signal" log just as they log metal-to-metal contact - at the end of each session, the offending drivers should be beaten severely with GCRs.

This whole argument is frivolous at best - if a competitor opts to provide additional notification to a fellow competitor, so be it. If you chose to not provide said additional notification, so be it. In other words, who f**king cares - the world will not stop revolving if the competitor in front of me waves a hand or not to notify me of a double-yellow situation.

grjones1
05-21-2004, 03:22 PM
[quote]Originally posted by mgyip

I'm sorry but I don't consider it "frivolous" if a guy is signaling there's a problem ahead and I'm tuned to respond that he's signaling to pass him (as was the case described at the begiining of this thread). Somehow this might lead to untoward circumstances.
G

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 21, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 21, 2004).]

RSTPerformance
05-21-2004, 03:54 PM
Still wondering.... Did four27 know in advance (before making the pass) about the Full course yellow? I think that is very important when looking at his original question.

Raymond

mgyip
05-21-2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
I'm sorry but I don't consider it "frivolous" if a guy is signaling there's a problem ahead and I'm tuned to respond that he's signaling to pass him (as was the case described at the begiining of this thread). Somehow this might lead to untoward circumstances.

Hhmm - so what you're saying is that any movement from within the cockpit automatically makes you believe that someone is giving you a passing signal? Just don't get caught out by someone who moves a hand whilst in your line of sight and then drives you off track b/c you took that movement as a passing signal - the GCR is fairly specific about passing signals being clear but is very non-specific about driver notifcations. That's most likely b/c the sport was intended to be "gentlemanly" but at this point in the sport, most of the "gentlemen" have long since retired and the "racers" must have every thought, action and POTENTIAL ACTION spelled out in great detail to avoid conflict.

I have rec'd both passing signals AND waved hands to indicate caution - to date, I've been able to differentiate the two, even "in the heat of battle". In fact, most passing signals appear as little more than a waving hand (except in my case for a certain Mr. Wilson who always receives a certain gesture and who is kind enough to return the same gesture as he passes). If I'm close enough to a competitor that he/she feels obligated to wave a hand to warn me of a double-yellow, I should have seen it myself - if not, shame on me.

four27
05-21-2004, 05:27 PM
Great discussion guys, I am the originator and victim of this question. It is obvious with all the talent that responded to this that my case for the hand signal giving me the right to pass has some real support. Will be interesting to see how national sees it. As many of you stated the GCR is the bible and if it aint in there you cant do it. A hand in the air, inside the car, on double yellow means I am disabled and a person may pass. If everyone starts coming up with their own way of signaling folks for different cautions then I see that as a totally dangerious situation. Thanks for the info.

Quickshoe
05-21-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
OK, let me get this straight:

1) No brakes, headed off course.
2) One hand is off the wheel signalling another driver.

Umm, if I don't have brakes, the last thing I am worried about is the person behind me

Bill, not sure if you were addressing this towards my comment. (No quote, but immediately following my post)

If I lost my brakes I would not be raising a hand. I would not be slowing at an abnormal/unexpected rate.

Quickshoe
05-21-2004, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
...excessive hand signals might be necessary.

How would they be excessive if they are necessary???

Quickshoe
05-21-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by mgyip:
Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light

Not sure where you read that.

GCR17.19

All non-Formula cars shall have two operating brake lights. All Formula
(open wheel) and Sports Racer cars shall be equiped with a red tailight...

apr67
05-21-2004, 10:12 PM
Corner workers use hand signals also, and that isn't in the GCR. When they tell you to slow down, or point you to the side of the track that is clear.

Lets hope your protest is upheld, and we stop using all hand signals, because some drivers are too busy to understand what is going on.

.. Sheesh. This is turing more and more into kindergarden racing.

grjones1
05-22-2004, 12:57 AM
Originally posted by mgyip:
Hhmm - so what you're saying is that any movement from within the cockpit automatically makes you believe that someone is giving you a passing signal? Just don't get caught out by someone who moves a hand whilst in your line of sight and then drives you off track b/c you took that movement as a passing signal - the GCR is fairly specific about passing signals being clear but is very non-specific about driver notifcations. That's most likely b/c the sport was intended to be "gentlemanly" but at this point in the sport, most of the "gentlemen" have long since retired and the "racers" must have every thought, action and POTENTIAL ACTION spelled out in great detail to avoid conflict.


Please explain one more time how I am supposed to differientiate between a waved hand meaning "pass me" and a waved hand meaning "there's a yellow flag ahead"? Not even "gentlemen" are mindreaders. And evidently it does cause confusion because the case in point (with Four27) is just such proof of the confusion. And evidently the steward that penalized Four27 is as incapable of reading and understanding the GCR as mgyip, who evidently does not know the difference between a brake light and a running light. I really don't want to be offensive but if you haven't got it right be gentlmen enough to admit it.
G


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 22, 2004).]

grjones1
05-22-2004, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
How would they be excessive if they are necessary???


"Excessive" in that they are used beyond what the GCR descibes them to be, and "necessary" because your equipment or lack thereof provides less means for your competitor to comprehend a given situation.
But I don't pretend to know or care about formula cars or drivers. This is afterall an IT forum.
G

grjones1
05-22-2004, 01:11 AM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]Corner workers use hand signals also, and that isn't in the GCR. When they tell you to slow down, or point you to the side of the track that is clear.

The Corner workers' job is not driving race cars, their job is to communicate with race car drivers or at least some race car drivers. Is that close enough to kindergarden speak?
G

ITSRX7
05-22-2004, 08:06 AM
OK, let's let this die. Some use them becasue they think it helps, some get confused by them because they aren't expecting them becasue there is no provision for them in the GCR.

Do what you think is right but don't be surprised when something else happens.

Be safe and have fun.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

mgyip
05-22-2004, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Please explain one more time how I am supposed to differientiate between a waved hand meaning "pass me" and a waved hand meaning "there's a yellow flag ahead"? Not even "gentlemen" are mindreaders. And evidently it does cause confusion because the case in point (with Four27) is just such proof of the confusion. And evidently the steward that penalized Four27 is as incapable of reading and understanding the GCR as mgyip, who evidently does not know the difference between a brake light and a running light. I really don't want to be offensive but if you haven't got it right be gentlmen enough to admit it.


I am gentleman enough to admit that the regulations state that brake lights must exist on all NON-FORMULA car and my statment was unfortunately a blanket statement. From henceforth, my statement, as corrected by grjones1 will read: Per the almighty GCR, all non-formula cars must have functional brake lights.

As for interpreting hand signals - if you are incapable of differentiating a "pass me" signal vs a "danger ahead" signal, that's perfectly acceptable because that is adhering to the letter of the law as put forth in the GCR. Other drivers may be capable of differentiating such signals and may be appreciative of the gesture but that's not specifically addressed in the GCR and thus falls into a grey area.

As for a driver who puts other drivers at risk in order to make a hand signal, that's a different issue all together - that's a driver who needs to realize that first and foremost, safety and car control are paramount. Warning other drivers of pending disaster is very secondary.

'nuff said...

ITSRX7
05-22-2004, 10:58 AM
The more I think about this, this is what I come up with:

If we are nose to tail and all of the sudden I see someone slow and make a hand signal, there are two scenarios:

1. I haven't seen the double yellows and I will then pop out and probably pass becuase I think you are signaling me that you are broken. This will all probably happen BEFORE the said flagging station because I SHOULD be seeing the same flags you are.

2. I have seen the DY and your hand signals are not needed.

I guess that's just how I see it.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

m glassburner
05-22-2004, 11:16 AM
Still...unless I missed it somewhere I have yet to see someone explain the hand signals!So I could have a clue of what your talking about... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Quickshoe
05-23-2004, 03:52 AM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
OK, let's let this die. Some use them becasue they think it helps, some get confused by them because they aren't expecting them becasue there is no provision for them in the GCR.

Do what you think is right but don't be surprised when something else happens.

Be safe and have fun.

AB



EXACTLY!!

I'll continue doing it the way I do. Those who understand it might be thankful. Those who don't can wonder what the hell I was trying to tell them.

grjones1
05-25-2004, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
EXACTLY!!

I'll continue doing it the way I do. Those who understand it might be thankful. Those who don't can wonder what the hell I was trying to tell them.

That's fine, but don't be surprised if you are passed under yellow. And the steward reviewing the protest for the pass should not forget to consider the fact that the guy who passed you was misinformed and conforming with the GCR.

G

Quickshoe
05-25-2004, 08:41 PM
Jones, seems like we are the only two still talking about this issue, and here I go continuing the madness...

A yellow flag would NOT cause me to slow down MORE rapidly than the competitor behind me would expect. Throughout this post, I've said that I put my hand up anytime I am going to slow more than my competitors might expect.

Maybe we've been arguing this back and forth without really listening to each other?

four27
05-27-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
That's fine, but don't be surprised if you are passed under yellow. And the steward reviewing the protest for the pass should not forget to consider the fact that the guy who passed you was misinformed and conforming with the GCR.

G



G Well this has been interesting and I will report outcome when National responds to my appeal. I think SCCA, from the different posts on this thread, has some work to do to educate all on hand signals.Seems a clearer signal like: a downword pointing thumb out the window could mean " I am brokedown" and that raised, waiving hands mean"heads up problem ahead/ flags out" this would accomodate everyones concerns. But for now, the GCR is clear and I hope they side with the decision I made, especially since it had zero effect on the outcome of the race.

RSTPerformance
05-27-2004, 09:38 PM
I have been way to busy to respond to these conversations... I still see that four27 hasn't admited weather or not he knew the yellow flag was out when he passed....

no offence four27 but that makes a huge difference in my opinion of your case...

Raymond "Still looking for the facts" Blethen

joeg
05-28-2004, 07:30 AM
Four 27--It does not matter what "effect" your pass had on the race; if the yellow was out, you simply cannot pass.

You willlose any protests on yellows where you did a pass and were caught.

oanglade
05-28-2004, 11:21 AM
Even if he saw the yellow flag before, his point is that the driver of the car in front of him made hand gestures that he took as to mean that the car was disabled and could not keep up the pace, so he should pass him, which is allowed as per the GCR.


In my opinion, the "catch" is that it is not enough to have the driver wave his hands to let you pass, but the car has to clearly not be able to keep the pace, be off-line and at the side of the road.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

grjones1
05-28-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by joeg:
Four 27--It does not matter what "effect" your pass had on the race; if the yellow was out, you simply cannot pass.

Joeg,
This is where you and the stewards are wrong: GCR 9.4.2 says YOU CAN PASS ON DOUBLE YELLOW under certain circumstances [When a driver in front raises his hand (to signal disablement)]. Why do you continue to ignore the GCR?
G

grjones1
05-28-2004, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by four27:
G Well this has been interesting and I will report outcome when National responds to my appeal. I think SCCA, from the different posts on this thread, has some work to do to educate all on hand signals.Seems a clearer signal like: a downword pointing thumb out the window could mean " I am brokedown" and that raised, waiving hands mean"heads up problem ahead/ flags out" this would accomodate everyones concerns. But for now, the GCR is clear and I hope they side with the decision I made, especially since it had zero effect on the outcome of the race.



I had a similar situation at VIR, and that's why I'm sticking up for you four27, and more importantly you were in the right. Stewards don't have any more business ignoring the rules than drivers do.
I'm afraid however that I would be against adding any more hand signals. It's obvious some drivers can't use the ones we have now correctly.
Good luck on your appeal, and if it fails I'll be writing letters. And by the way thanks for fighting the good fight.
G. Robert Jones

Geezer
05-28-2004, 01:15 PM
From GCR 9.2.2:

"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signalling vehicle..."

My reading of this would be that the signal for a disabled car under a double yellow is all three actions described above; raising a hand, pulling to the side of the course, and staying off the racing line. Raising a hand alone would not suffice.

Also note there is at least one other instance where a driver would raise a hand under double yellow; during an aborted start or restart (7.5.9).

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 28, 2004).]

oanglade
05-28-2004, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Joeg,
This is where you and the stewards are wrong: GCR 9.4.2 says YOU CAN PASS ON DOUBLE YELLOW under certain circumstances [When a driver in front raises his hand (to signal disablement)]. Why do you continue to ignore the GCR?
G




It is not enough for the driver to raise his/her hand for it to be legal to pass him/her under full course yellow.


Several things need to happen:

9.2.2
When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle.


So:
1) The car must not be able to keep the pace.
2) The driver must raise his/her hand.
3) The car must be pulled to the side of the course.
4) The car should stay off the racing line.

This is a list of things that must happen before the the car can be passed under double yellow. It doesn't say that the driver can choose some of these items and not others.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

Geezer
05-28-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by oanglade:

It is not enough for the driver to raise his/her hand for it to be legal to pass him/her under full course yellow.


Copycat http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Another point is that if one does see the double yellow, one will gain nothing by hurrying to pass a disabled car, or one thought to be disabled. The Starter will (or should, anyway) make sure the field is properly formed before restarting the race, and no position or distance will be lost.

oanglade
05-28-2004, 02:14 PM
I think that right there is the key.

I mean, I am so paranoid about passing another car under full course yellow, even if the driver was giving hand signals... I've waited until I saw the car crawling by the side of the road and it was really obvious.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

grjones1
05-28-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Geezer:
Copycat http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

Another point is that if one does see the double yellow, one will gain nothing by hurrying to pass a disabled car, or one thought to be disabled. The Starter will (or should, anyway) make sure the field is properly formed before restarting the race, and no position or distance will be lost.

Well Geezer and Orangeade, You certainly are good at quoting the GCR.

First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand. And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.
As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.

And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.

RST,
Doesn't matter if he knew there was an all course yellow: If he assumed the guy was signaling "disabled," according to the GCR, he can pass under double-yellow and if he was'nt under yellow, he could pass anyway. What's your point?

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

Quickshoe
05-28-2004, 06:41 PM
First it is "why do you continue to ignore the GCR?"

Then it is "you sure are good at quoting the GCR"

And it's called grasping at straws http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

--Daryl DeArman


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 28, 2004).]

grjones1
05-28-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Quickshoe:
First it is "why do you continue to ignore the GCR?"

Then it is "you sure are good at quoting the GCR"

And it's called grasping at straws http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

--Daryl DeArman


[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited May 28, 2004).]

Daryl,
Quoting the GCR and understanding what it says are two different things. I'm sorry you are frustrated by that.

grjones1
05-28-2004, 07:03 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Daryl,
Quoting the GCR and understanding what it says are two different things. I was referring to the statement that "you cannot pass under yellow in any circumstances"(ref. Joeg's remark): that's ignoring the GCR. And suggesting that someone ignores the other circumstances: pulling over and off the racing lines, leaves a great deal of room for interpretation in a given moment. One person's perception of someone pulling over and being off the racing line may be very different from another's perception. That's why they were "grasping at straws." I'm sorry you are frustrated by that.



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

Knestis
05-28-2004, 07:55 PM
Okay. New plan.

If you are behind me and I check up suddenly for ANY reason, I am not going to give you the benefit of a hand signal contrary to the GCR.

If you hit me, I will have the paperwork already filled out - minus the car number and color - to file a protest under 9.1.1.a, 9.1.1.b, and 9.1.2.

I'm sorry that it's come to this but I want to be scrupulous where that darned GCR is concerned...

K

Geezer
05-28-2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[B] Well Geezer and Orangeade, You certainly are good at quoting the GCR.

The GCR being the rules, and all, just figured that's what you should follow.


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand.

Might not be the case if the preceding driver saw the double yellow and followed the rules to slow down, but you hadn't seen it yet. I can think of several places on several tracks I run in which that could happen. four27 never specified.


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.

Adjusting his mirror? Swatting a cicada? Scratching his nose? pulling a tearoff? Three actions are still required by the GCR to indicate a disabled car. Raising a hand alone doesn't do it.


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.

The racing line is pretty subjective? You mean you actually have a hard time figuring out who's on the racing line, and who's trying to get out of the way? Come on, now. Even on the straight, there's a preferred line to set you up for the next turn.



Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.

My GCR disk is at work so I can't check, but I seem to remember the rule on restarts requires the Starter to verify that the field is fully formed. If they don't do that, they're in violation of the GCR and should be protested. Their failure to follow the rules does not excuse another person's failure to do so, even in the "real world of SCCA racing".

Bottom line is that a full course yellow indicates a dangerous situation on track; dangerous enough that all racing has to stop. Your first concern in this event should be the safety of everyone on the track, not trying to gain a possible advantage by twisting the rules to your own gain. If you want to pass under the double yellow, you should be damn sure you're doing it with the permission of the car you're passing. If not, you're a danger to everyone else, and should be penalized. It is always the overtaking car's responsibility to pass in a safe manner, green or double yellow.




[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 28, 2004).]

grjones1
05-28-2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
Okay. New plan.

If you are behind me and I check up suddenly for ANY reason, I am not going to give you the benefit of a hand signal contrary to the GCR.

If you hit me, I will have the paperwork already filled out - minus the car number and color - to file a protest under 9.1.1.a, 9.1.1.b, and 9.1.2.

I'm sorry that it's come to this but I want to be scrupulous where that darned GCR is concerned...

K
Welcome to the fray, K.

I noticed you carefully excluded reference to 9.1.1.c and the fact that the overtaken driver has some responsibilty in the act of passing, or perhaps you were just intent upon making your point.

In my experience (forgive my repeated reference to that), good stewards (especially those with some racing experience) are aware that there are some circumstances where the hitter is not always at fault, and the hittee may have been somewhat overexhuberant in the application of his middle pedal, or other circumstances may need review.

For example when a turn is full at five abreast and the field checks up at a rate that surpasses any human's reaction time, some cars may come into contact. That can be seen as a racing incident (the nature of the sport) and your protest based on the "letter of the law" will fall on deaf ears I hope. Especially if the hitter has downshifted and locked all four wheels in his efforts to refrain from making contact. (He then has done all humanly possible to "avoid contact.") If you in your infinite doctoral wisdom do not realize that situation and you automatically file protest, in my opinion you are simply wasting time and resources and are more culpable than any driver inadvertantly nudging the rear end of one of his competitors.
My great fear here is that our sport is being turned over to some people who believe they are involved in a sport that lacks the possibility of injury to themselves or their cars. I beleive, we can work on the personal injury, but wear and tear on the cars is to be expected, and I guess I'll be happy to leave it when little mamby pambies go running to the stewards like children with the report, "He hit me; he hit me!" The same as I react to stewards who declare, "You passed under yellow, you are guilty'" Indeed there have been instances where if I had not passed under yellow the guy ahead of me would have been eating rubber off the tire walls. Every situation has circumstances that must be reviewed before fault can be honestly attributed. Knee jerk reactions to metal-to-metals and cornerworkers' reports of passing on yellows is really out of place. I think it's much like watching professional football metamorphose to a game of flag football because of fear of injury.

Now don't come rebutting my comments with some BS about my ignoring safe practices or wanting to run banzai out there with no regard for my competitors, that's 180 out.

Your comments are in what you perceive to be my clinging unreasonably to the GCR in the double-yellow discussion. What you are ignoring in fact is that in most cases the extra handwaving is a dangerous practice in more ways than one, and because it flies in the face of GCR tenets, the practice is adding to the confusion, not helping to relieve it. And four27's experience is a pretty good indication of why it is adding to the confusion.
G. Robert

grjones1
05-28-2004, 09:41 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
[B] Your first concern in this event should be the safety of everyone on the track, not trying to gain a possible advantage by twisting the rules to your own gain.
Why do you assume I am simply "twisting the rules to my advantage" if I believe a guy is giving me a wave by, Indeed I'm trying to give him a clear track by getting by him to do whatever he needs to do.
And as far as watching for his getting off the racing line" let us consider that the front straight at VIR has a kink right beneath the starer's stand where one must apex to continue the straight without running out of race track. A Miata under full course yellow throws up his hand while running directly under the stand full course right. He was indeed on the "racing line" and at half speed when he signaled as I approached. I passed with all indications that he was signaling a wave by. The steward accused me of passing under yellow evidently not concerned with the fact that I had a choice of interpreting the situation as I should or slamming brakes with a possibility of causing the guy behind me to hit both of us. And the Miata was not going off course at the starter's stand and wasn't going to cross the course in order to leave it and putting everyone in jeopardy. The point was: ideally waiting for your three conditions to transpire: wave, move off line, and pull off course before passing would have caused a more dangerous situation than we had by passing.

Sometimes things are afterall happening in parallel and not in series as in your ideal world.
G

oanglade
05-28-2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
First if the guy was "keeping pace," you wouldn't be able to pass him anyway- under yellow, none of us are in race mode


Keeping pace with the pace car is certainly slow enough to be passed by anyone else. In the case that started this topic, it seems that the driver that waved his hands was able to keep pace, but obviously he was passed by someone else that already understood that the course was under FCY.


Originally posted by grjones1:

and probably wouldn't dice to get by someone who is raising his hand for reasons other than for what he is supposed to raise his hand. And if he is not disabled, why is he raising his hand? (To tell us we are under yellow? He's not supposed to do that and if he does, we have no reson to comprehend his signal- it's not in the book.


Just like it is not on the book that you can pass someone under FCY simply because they raise their hands.



Originally posted by grjones1:

As far as 'moving over and leaving the racing line, that's all pretty subjective: suppose he's already over and exactly what is the "racing line" on a straight? Methinks you are grasping at straws.


Straws? We just quoted what the GCR says, word by word. They are not my straws to grab.
You say "suppose he is already over", well, if he's already over, then he's not on the line so that satisfies that.


Originally posted by grjones1:

And evidently you have not experienced too many restarts on an all couse yellow: starters have never in my experience waited for the field to "reform" before they dropped the green for a restart- just doesn't happen in other than after a wave-off on the initial start: the starter gets a call from the tower to restart on the next pass of the leader, and the starter upon seeing the race leader drops the green, regardless of whether or not the backmarkers have caught up. That's the real world of SCCA racing.


That might be the case, but you don't get a restart until at least everyone has gone by the start line while under full course yellow, so everyone gets a lap under full course yellow, which gives everyone plenty of time to figure out if the car in front of them is disabled and signaling to pass or something else.



Originally posted by grjones1:

RST,
Doesn't matter if he knew there was an all course yellow: If he assumed the guy was signaling "disabled," according to the GCR, he can pass under double-yellow and if he was'nt under yellow, he could pass anyway. What's your point?


That's the thing! The GCR doesn't say that signaling "disabled" is enough to pass under double-yellow, so just because someone signals, you can't legally pass under double yellow!!
Wether the GCR is crazy or not, that's another subject, but that is what it says.
The GCR pretty much says that the car has to look obviously disabled (going really slow, on the edge of the track, off line) AND the driver signaling.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

grjones1
05-28-2004, 10:19 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
[B] I seem to remember the rule on restarts requires the Starter to verify that the field is fully formed. If they don't do that, they're in violation of the GCR and should be protested.

Geezer,
If a starter waited for the field to reform at VIR (3.2 miles, 75-car fields) before dropping the green after an all-course yellow, we'd be under yellow for the remainder of every regional (10-lap) race.

Sorry but again your ideal world doesn't exist.
G

Knestis
05-28-2004, 10:24 PM
I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.

Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.

The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.

THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.

If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.

I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, (B) he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.

K

grjones1
05-28-2004, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by oanglade:
That's the thing! The GCR doesn't say that signaling "disabled" is enough to pass under double-yellow, so just because someone signals, you can't legally pass under double yellow!!
Wether the GCR is crazy or not, that's another subject, but that is what it says.
The GCR pretty much says that the car has to look obviously disabled (going really slow, on the edge of the track, off line) AND the driver signaling.



In fact:
"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

The GCR directions here for pulling over and staying off the racing line are for the disabled driver not directions for the passing driver. It does not say "after" or "when, the disabled driver has... ." It simply says, "Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

In fact, the purpose here is to let drivers know that in an all course yellow situation, they are expected to close up as quickly and safely as possible and not hold up the people behind them.

One can see this rule was written by racers, and not by administrators.

I'm sorry but you are inferring your own rules and not reading. You are truly "grasping at straws."
G

oanglade
05-28-2004, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
In fact:
"When the double yellow is displayed, drivers shall make every effort to safely catch the field and form up behind the Pace (Safety) Car or race leader. Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line. Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."

The GCR directions here for pulling over and staying off the racing line are for the disabled driver not directions for the passing driver. It does not say "after" or "when, the disabled driver has... ." It simply says, "Other drivers may safely pass the signaling vehicle."


You just quoted where it says that the driver will signal that his car is disabled by doing a list of 3 things and that the other drivers may pass after getting the signal.

Look how the GCR describes the "signal":
"...signal that their vehicle is disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side of the course, and staying well off the racing line."

The 3 things are the signal to the other driver.



Originally posted by grjones1:

In fact, the purpose here is to let drivers know that in an all course yellow situation, they are expected to close up as quickly and safely as possible and not hold up the people behind them.

One can see this rule was written by racers, and not by administrators.

I'm sorry but you are inferring your own rules and not reading. You are truly "grasping at straws."
G



"Purpose" and intention of the authors is another subject. If everyone knew and followed the intentions of the rules, there wouldn't be people spending thousands of dollars on showroom stock motors in SSB and SSC, there might not be spherical bearings in IT, etc.



------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

grjones1
05-28-2004, 11:09 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Knestis:
[b]I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.
_____________________________________________
You suggested as I read it that you would protest anyone hitting you in the rear under any circumstances.
_____________________________________
Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.
__________________________________________
I simply was providing an example of when hitting you in the rear end might be forgivable.
__________________________________________
The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.
__________________________________________
I'm really confused here K. In that event (not under yellow), I would simply dart out and pass you, and I wouldn't be checking my mirror or gauges if I'm running that close behind, I think I would be waiting for the right time to pass, and if you lifted I would pass.
___________________________________________
THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.
_____________________________________________
Again your wave really wouldn't influence me one way or the other except as an opportunity to pass.
____________________________________________
If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.
___________________________________________
If I hit you in that situation, it's my fault and I deserve to be penalized, but waving would not in any case help- car control is what helps and maybe your not doing anything like lifting in the wrong place.
__________________________________________
I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, (B) he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.
___________________________________________
I don't pretend to be omniscient, but I think he honestly believed he was getting a wave by, and he had a right to.
G


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

lateapex911
05-28-2004, 11:37 PM
I've stayed out of this up to now, but I have to make one minor point...

Mr. Jones, please take the time to read and understand how to quote and utilize bold and italic types while injecting your comments on others quoted posts...

(To do so, please click on the "UBB Code is on" phrase in red at the left while typing a response. The most common codes used here are: quotes, bolds, and italics)


This is the most dang confusing thread I've read in a while, and that includes the 511 post ITA thread!

thanks

Oh yeah...all three items (waving, reduced speed and off the line) constitute the 'signal'. Plain english.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

grjones1
05-28-2004, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by oanglade:
Believe it or not I'll concede the three points of signaling (only because I'm an English major and grammatically your inference is correct, AND i WAS WRONG. However, Given examples I've already provided, one does not always have the opportunity to wait for those three conditions, nor does the disabled driver always have the opportunity to accomplish them while being overtaken (ref. the series parallel comment). And who is to say all four conditions are not being met at the same time: the disabled driver is waving, pulling over to stop, and the passer is passing. Nor does the GCR actually say all three of the passee's directions have to be met only that the passer may pass the "signaling" driver and that's a present participle suggesting that the passee may be in the act of "signaling". Things happen pretty fast out there and sometimes all at the same time. Do you disagee?

G. Robert

[/B]



[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

grjones1
05-28-2004, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
I've stayed out of this up to now, but I have to make one minor point...

Mr. Jones, please take the time to read and understand how to quote and utilize bold and italic types while injecting your comments on others quoted posts...

(To do so, please click on the "UBB Code is on" phrase in red at the left while typing a response. The most common codes used here are: quotes, bolds, and italics)


This is the most dang confusing thread I've read in a while, and that includes the 511 post ITA thread!

thanks

Oh yeah...all three items (waving, reduced speed and off the line) constitute the 'signal'. Plain english.

[b]Thanks Jake, I stand corrected on all counts.
G[b/]
but obviously I still don't know how to use that UBB code.




[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 28, 2004).]

Geezer
05-29-2004, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by grjones1:
And as far as watching for his getting off the racing line" let us consider that the front straight at VIR has a kink right beneath the starer's stand where one must apex to continue the straight without running out of race track. A Miata under full course yellow throws up his hand while running directly under the stand full course right. He was indeed on the "racing line" and at half speed when he signaled as I approached. I passed with all indications that he was signaling a wave by. The steward accused me of passing under yellow evidently not concerned with the fact that I had a choice of interpreting the situation as I should or slamming brakes with a possibility of causing the guy behind me to hit both of us. [/b]

I'm familiar with the front straight at VIR. you can see the starters stand, where there would have been a double yellow, from about the time you exit Hog Pen. Yet you didn't have time on that long straight before the kink to see the flag and slow down as required under double yellow. You were closing on a car that had correctly slowed down, and was maintaining the racing line, with a speed differential so great that you would have had to "slam on brakes" to avoid passing it, and then did pass it. I can see how the Steward might have a problem with that. You had the rest of the front straight to pass the Miata, if he was really disabled and gave a clear indication by signaling, which the GCR still defines as: raising a hand, getting well off the line, and pulling to the side of the course. You'd still have had 3 miles to close up with the field.


Originally posted by grjones1:
If a starter waited for the field to reform at VIR (3.2 miles, 75-car fields) before dropping the green after an all-course yellow, we'd be under yellow for the remainder of every regional (10-lap) race.

Sorry but again your ideal world doesn't exist.

No, only the rules exist, and they don't change for your convenience. If you're concerned about the field not forming up right, raise the issue at the driver's meeting. Make sure the pace or lead car knows to slow enough to let the field form. They have at least 3.27 miles to do it. Make sure the starter knows his job. Make sure the other drivers know to close up. And if they screw up and you lose a few seconds, that's tough. Complain about it after the race. It doesn't give you any right to violate the rules. If you do so you should be penalized.


[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

grjones1
05-29-2004, 11:29 AM
I didn't violate any rules, and if you are looking at the starter's stand while you are exiting Hog Pen, your exit speed must not be very distracting (read: you are very slow). As a matter of fact I was already aware there was a double yellow and I was trying to "keep the pace." No, my speed was correct for conditions and the Miata was half my speed (too slow for conditions) at the edge of the track and waving his hand (I believe that meets all criteria for "I am disabled." But the steward had the same attitude as yours: blindly clinging to "you passed on yellow, you are guilty."
And if the Miata is at half my speed which was a normal yellow-flag controlled rate and I remain behind him, just how am I supposed to catch up to "reform" for the restart 3 miles behind the lead pack? Let's try to be a little aware of all that is goin on.

And my job as a driver is not to tell the steward how to run a race. He's supposed to know how to run a race or he doesn't have any business being a steward.

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 29, 2004).]

Geezer
05-29-2004, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
I didn't violate any rules, and if you are looking at the starter's stand while you are exiting Hog Pen, your exit speed must not be very distracting (read: you are very slow).

When I get on the straight, I look down the track, and there's the starter's stand. What a concept.



Originally posted by grjones1:
As a matter of fact I was already aware there was a double yellow and I was trying to "keep the pace." No, my speed was correct for conditions and the Miata was half my speed (too slow for conditions) at the edge of the track and waving his hand (I believe that meets all criteria for "I am disabled."

Nope. Has to be well off the racing line as well. If you'd waited 30 yards past the kink you'd have known if he was really getting out of the way. BTW, was the Miata really disabled?


Originally posted by grjones1:
But the steward had the same attitude as yours: blindly clinging to "you passed on yellow, you are guilty."

Maybe because the Steward is responsible for the conduct and safety of everyone on track, not just there to make sure you're not slowed down as you try to catch up with the field.


Originally posted by grjones1:
And if the Miata is at half my speed which was a normal yellow-flag controlled rate and I remain behind him, just how am I supposed to catch up to "reform" for the restart 3 miles behind the lead pack? Let's try to be a little aware of all that is goin on.

Let's be aware that if he was disabled and did the three things that signal that fact, you could have waited a second or two and passed him in the straight before turn 1. If you couldn't catch a field under double yellow in the remaining three miles, I'm afraid it's you who are very slow. If he was just going slower than you liked, and held you up, that's tough. It is no excuse for you to pass him.


Originally posted by grjones1:
And my job as a driver is not to tell the steward how to run a race. He's supposed to know how to run a race or he doesn't have any business being a steward.


Part of your job as a driver is to ask questions if you think you and the organizers or other drivers have differences in their understanding of the rules at the event. Expecting that your interpretation and that of the Steward will always be the same is risky, and if they don't match, he wins.

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited May 29, 2004).]

grjones1
05-30-2004, 01:37 PM
Geezer,
I've already said I was aware the double yellow was out (by the way I forgot to mention we were in the middle of a deluge.)

And if you are looking up coming out of hogpen to look at the starter stand and not down to check your placement on the track, its conditions and traffic, I'm afraid your "concept" is flawed.

But I am not required to wait for him to pull over, only to see that he is pulling over, and to pass him safely. That's exactly what I did.

As far as I know he was disabled: he had pulled to the edge of the course, had slowed drastically, and his hand was in the air waving; all according to the GCR he was disabled and I could legally pass.

If he were not disabled, he in fact is contrary to the GCR: he's not supposed to be waving and he is supposed to "keep pace." Not slow to a crawl and put those behind him in jeopardy of 1) banging into his rear end and 2) misreading his signal. You see all parties have responsibilities for safety, not just the guy who passes when he for all that occurred had a right to pass, and did the "safe" thing.

And if you have raced at VIR, you know damn good and well the ITC cars in a C, B,A and S race after 5 laps are not going to catch the lead group under a full yellow before the stater restarts the race, no matter how many questions I ask at the drivers' meeting and especially when the guy in front of you doesn't know or care that he is supposed to close up. (Many beleive they are supposed to go into tour mode and enjoy the rest.) And I believe I have the right to expect the stewards of a race to be totally familiar with the GCR without my reminding them (and probably insulting them by asking)Be real!
And I really resent the fact that you and the steward assumed I passed simply because I was being held up. I passed because I had the legal right to pass and I accomplished it in a safe manner (and by the way so did the guy behind me).

No matter how you and the steward twist it, I did not deserve a reprimand, and probably neither did four27.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

Geezer
05-30-2004, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Geezer,
I've already said I was aware the double yellow was out (by the way I forgot to mention we were in the middle of a deluge.)

And if you are looking up coming out of hogpen to look at the starter stand and not down to check your placement on the track, its conditions and traffic, I'm afraid your "concept" is flawed.

But I am not required to wait for him to pull over, only to see that he is pulling over, and to pass him safely. That's exactly what I did.

As far as I know he was disabled: he had pulled to the edge of the course, had slowed drastically, and his hand was in the air waving; all according to the GCR he was disabled and I could legally pass.

If he were not disabled, he in fact is contrary to the GCR: he's not supposed to be waving and he is supposed to "keep pace." Not slow to a crawl and put those behind him in jeopardy of 1) banging into his rear end and 2) misreading his signal. You see all parties have responsibilities for safety, not just the guy who passes when he for all that occurred had a right to pass, and did the "safe" thing.

And if you have raced at VIR, you know damn good and well the ITC cars in a C, B,A and S race after 5 laps are not going to catch the lead group under a full yellow before the stater restarts the race, no matter how many questions I ask at the drivers' meeting and especially when the guy in front of you doesn't know or care that he is supposed to close up. (Many beleive they are supposed to go into tour mode and enjoy the rest.) And I believe I have the right to expect the stewards of a race to be totally familiar with the GCR without my reminding them (and probably insulting them by asking)Be real!
And I really resent the fact that you and the steward assumed I passed simply because I was being held up. I passed because I had the legal right to pass and I accomplished it in a safe manner (and by the way so did the guy behind me).

No matter how you and the steward twist it, I did not deserve a reprimand, and probably neither did four27.


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 30, 2004).]

I guess we agree to disagree then. And when you rearend some guy who was scratching his nose under double yellow and wonder why you got a penalty or suspension, we'll probably still disagree. It's just as well I race with NASA, and don't have to worry about it being me you tag if I get an itchy chin, since the NASA CCR mandate's no passing under any yellow.

grjones1
05-30-2004, 09:38 PM
Good luck in NASA Geezer. (I'm sure you'll never be tagged in a NASA race - sure.)
Have you considered vintage racing- the one's that only allow passing on the straight?

And I guess I can still tell the difference between someone scratching and someone waving.

Agree or disagree, if you had been my student and had taken your hand off the wheel to scratch your chin in a yellow flag situation instead of maintaining control of your car, I would have flunked you when I instructed for NASA.

G

moto62
05-31-2004, 03:47 AM
Wow! this thread has taken some interesting twists and turns and a few folks have given their own opinions for different situations concerning the double yellow flags. First, I don't normally get involved in discussions of this nature but this time I will. Quickshoe, Ony, Geeser, Jake, Dick and anyone who is agreeing with you guys, I will race with you guys anyday. Four27, Grjones1, and anyone else who agrees with these guys, You people are dangerous. As n far as hand signals, a fist up as I approach pit in would probably mean that I'm going into the pits. Anywhere else on the track, you'll get a wave from me if I see a situation where I may need to slow down, like approaching a yellow flag, or a deer crossing or whatever. Now, lets get to the point. I see a double yellow flags. You're gonna get a wave from me weather the GCR says to do so or not. If that is not an indication to you that I am slowing down, then you need to go race someplace else. If I gave you a wave and you assumed that it means I am becoming disabled and you go zooming by, then more power to you. I won't have to pass you again because the stewards will throw you back a few positions for passing under the yellow anyway. Now I agree thatsometimes on a FCY you may have a car/driver who isn't making any real effort to catch the field but thats just tough do do. You have to stay behind that dude or dudette unless you get the "I'm disabled" signal. There is no other reason that will justify you passing the slow car under a FCY.
The GCR has been quoted here a few times and someone mentioned that if they slowed then got rearended, they would file papers? Something about racing room. Lets use myself as an example. If we are racing, you in front of me by a couple of feet, you see a yellow, you lift. Chances are, you'll get a love tap. Same situation, you get on the binders, you're gonna get drilled by me. A quick wave before you get on the binders, I would probably start slowing down before you do and avoid any kind of contact. I believe the GCR defines racing room as three inches from your competitors bumper if your behind him and one foot away if you are side by side. Any takers?
Ray

grjones1
05-31-2004, 05:03 PM
Four27, Grjones1, and anyone else who agrees with these guys, You people are dangerous.

I won't reiterate the thread again to answer your comments. But I will say that I have raced since 1971 and put one car in front of me off course in perhaps 150 races. And that individual checked up at such a rate that no one could have missed him. I regret you consider me "dangerous."

apr67
05-31-2004, 10:28 PM
I think this thread is important. It shows that some things that we each take for granted we should think about.

I will still continue to use a rasied fist to indicate that I am slowing for a non-normal reason. I will still point drivers by when I want them to pass me on a certain side. And I will still wave to the flag stand and the corner when I need them to know that I saw a flag (been talked to by the stewards that we must acknologe flags more than once).

But if you mistake that for a 'please pass' under yellow, I will try to inform you of your mistake.

RSTPerformance
05-31-2004, 11:05 PM
I am with APR67... only I will take it one step further... I will protest you if you pass me under yellow, wether my hand is up or not, or if I slow faster than you... I protested 9 people last year, and I will do it again this year http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif If you pull 4 wheels off in the grass and let me back bye, then no protest, and/or if you let me pass back when the green flies, then you are also safe... Oh wait the only other way to be safe is to get me before I make it to the stewards stand.

Raymond "I hope I never miss a yellow and get bit back in the but http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif" Blethen

PS: My opinions actions in this matter may be against some of the members at RST Performance Racing, however I have been past to many times under yellow.

ddewhurst
06-01-2004, 08:08 AM
I been reading, reading & reading some more & I got to tell ya all a little TRUE story.

Last year at Road America during a Q session approaching the Kink the YELLOW is waving. The kink is HIGH SPEED with the down side BLIND. I put an open hand up & slow the car down. There is dirt, grass & stuff all across the track with a really messed up car sitting drivers right as this dirt bag in Datsun never lifted blows past me. The Kink is FULL speed slight left & I'm told at the Kink the back goes & you wind up backwards on drivers right per this cars restingg position. & I can say the rear likes to come loose.

Anyway let's jump ahead to the paddock at session end. The guy is located near my area. I walk over to talk to him about the YELLOW & before I am finished explaining the situation he says I NEVER PASSED YOU & his female friend sitcks her 2 cents in & says the same thing just like she was riding in the car.

Nuff said http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited June 01, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited June 01, 2004).]

grjones1
06-01-2004, 08:50 AM
[quote]Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I protested 9 people last year, and I will do it again this year http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
_____________________________
How many protests did you win?
GRJ

grjones1
06-01-2004, 08:54 AM
David,
Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ

RSTPerformance
06-01-2004, 09:58 AM
I would have easily won as it was all on incar video... No "hands in the air" type of issues, just plain "black and white" passing under yellow... So somewhat of a different situation.

Some of the drivers were told that they were going to get points on license and probation... Because of some incorrect stewarding (untimely) final results were posted. My protest was more of a wake up call to the stewards that flaggers and drivers were not "keeping it safe" or "fair" on the track so in the end I did drop the protest as my point was made. That was my goal.

Before in these posts I repeatedly asked if four27 had seen the yellow prior to his/her pass, simply because I would have liked to have made the point that he/she should have seen the yellow... and I would have asked to dig deep in his/her thoughts to see if he/she still would have passed or if he/she would have waited to be sure the car was truly disabled (second wave bye?). Because I never got a clear answer, I would guess that he/she never saw the yellow and probably would have acted differently if he/she did see the yellow. A mistake was made, and I don't think the driver is unsafe, although I do think that he/she is guilty of passing under yellow. Good luck in the appeal.

I many times acknowledge flags (any chance to wave to corner workers and fans I take). if you mistaken that for me being disabled that will be your own mistake.

I think this discussion has a simple resolution... Be sure the car is disabled and it is obvious to the OUTSIDE observer before making this type of pass under yellow.

Good luck with future passes!!!

Raymond

grjones1
06-01-2004, 11:25 AM
And Raymond,
My major point was that most of the people ready to judge four27 guilty had not considered the wave by rule under double yellow. I will concede that waving as it is practiced is of course usually discernible, but at the same time many as myself treat it as a wave by as the GCR allows it on many occasions and may pass instead of waiting for the waver to pull off course. If we don't see yellows or if we are under DBY, the car has slowed and is on the edge of the course, we are pretty much informed that he is disabled and we may pass. If there are no yellows and he waves, again we may discern he is disabled and we may pass (whether he waves or not we're racing and we can pass anyway.) If I see a wave I'm not going to automatically assume he is simply warning me of a problem, that's not in the GCR and too many drivers would use the wave to put off my pass (those cagey old reprobates). So again (and I'm sure to the liking of all who are reading this) for the last time - drivers are better off using both hands to drive their cars and not to attempt to send what can be misinformation to the guys behind.
GRJ

four27
06-01-2004, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
I have been way to busy to respond to these conversations... I still see that four27 hasn't admited weather or not he knew the yellow flag was out when he passed....

no offence four27 but that makes a huge difference in my opinion of your case...

Raymond "Still looking for the facts"

Blethen


I hadnt seen a yellow flag yet because I hadnt come to the corner yet but I did see the yellow lites (indicating yellow flags ahead) and then a few seconds later when I closed in on the other car that is when I saw the btake lites and in cockpit waiving of hands.

four27
06-01-2004, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
I left out 9.1.1.c because it just didn't seem pertinent. There's been no suggestion of attempted blocking in the case at hand and I wouldn't be doing it in the situation that I anticipate above.

Remembering that this is one of those situations we talked about at VIR - an academic online discussion rather than "real life" - I didn't say anything about locking up brakes going into T1 five-wide on a start.

The situation that I describe is the type I mentioned earlier, where I might breathe the throttle where someone else expects me to be hard on the gas. No brake lights and a sudden lack of acceleration on my part, compounded by a guage or mirror check on the other's make it relatively easy for the him to miss out on what is up and run up my backside.

THAT'S the kind of situation in which I would wave - the kind of situation that it's now being suggested that I had BETTER NOT.

If I get rear ended in that situation, it's not a "racing incident." It's the following driver not avoiding physical contact (9.1.1.a.), failing to give me racing room (9.1.1.b.), and not executing a pass safely (9.1.2) due to his error. I'd rather help him NOT make it.

I've alluded to it but not said it straight out - even if the intent WAS to signal a busted car, I think that it's incumbent on the passing driver to look for more evidence that a car is disabled before passing it, particularly under a double yellow where the few seconds required to assess the situation won't have a drastic cost.

Further - like some others here, I think - I'm left with doubts that the passing driver in this case actually knew that the yellow was out before executing the move.

I don't have a lot to go on so this is a huge supposition but it's not hard to imagine that the sequence of events went more like, (a) guy in front lifts for yellows, (B) he waves his hands to alert following guy, © following guy passes leading guy (due to reduced pace) and sees hand waving after committing to the move, (d) passer sees yellows, realizes mistake, and tries to undo his error by letting the other guy back by, (e) race ends, (f) passer-under-yellow takes advantage of passee's good intentions and makes a case after the fact after checking the GCR - probably after the stewards' actions against him - and finally, (g) he posts his question here to bolster both his case and the belief that he's been wronged.

Sound plausible?

Of course, I could be very wrong.

K
K-- During the post race impound where the discussions took place on this issue and where I was penalized one position, no one cited the GCR. I did not even realize the GCR dealt with this so directly until I got home that night. Had it not, Iwould have acceppted the locals decision and forgotten about it. My only thought at the time of the race and afterword during the impound was that you can pass a disabled car I thought under all conditions but a red flag. Otherwise, everyrace would come to a halt everytime a car breaks down. So, the language in the GCR requires a judgement call. There was no question in my mind he was broke. In 4 years I have never been guilty of a flag infraction or even talked to in impound.

Every driver in the situation I was in as to make a judgement call. I dont think anyone would wait for the car ahead to come to a complete stop. The driver I had passed had hit the wall hard the day before and I remember thinking that something must of broke loose.

This discussion might be out of order while this thing is in appeal and I had no idea it would prompt such a lively discussion. But, the facts I gave for the impound folks and the appeal are the same and are not in dispute so the discussion seems appropriate. 1) I did pass intentionally on a double yellow 2) the driver I passed did have brakes on and was waiving his hand (s). It is also interesting that in the souble flag section they dont refer to slowing down and pulling over and waiving rather they refer to a signal. Are they referring to all three signals? one signal?

The driver I passed is a top notch guy and driver and on one hand I appreciate his signal but I asked him after the race to not bother signaling me in the future as I am responsible for my own flag recognition. Frankly, the fewer signals from other drivers allows me to concentrate on the track and the fast pace of thing.

My main reason for the appeal is , especially after talking to local drivers, is to clarify this situation. The number of responses to this thread would seem to justify my thought that it needs clarification.

thanks for your input

Knestis
06-01-2004, 02:39 PM
Thanks for the clarification...

K

grjones1
06-01-2004, 03:54 PM
four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distortion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 01, 2004).]

four27
06-01-2004, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distotion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

Robert, Thanks for the support. Will be interesting to see what happens. If it is rejected I sure hope we get a clarification other than "not well founded"

four27
06-01-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
four27,
You have presented your case certainly better than I have, and I applaud you.

If your appeal fails, you can be sure there will be at least one hot letter demanding clarification. These things need to be attended to by National and not left to distotion and misuse by me or anyone else.
G. Robert Jones

Robert, Thanks for the support. Will be interesting to see what happens. If it is rejected I sure hope we get a clarification other than "not well founded"

RSTPerformance
06-01-2004, 05:46 PM
Four27...

Thanks for the update, and answering my question!!! I am pleased or happy that you new a yellow was out. You mention you were not at the station yet... if you made the pass before the station it is legal right?

And I also want to thank you for telling the driver not to signal a yellow flag to the cars behind. I have certainly used yellow flags to my advantage, and I encourage anyone else to, just do it safely. I agree that a hand signal to tell another driver about a yellow is unnecessary and confusing. From what I have herd I would have probably just pulled out from behind the front car to get a clear view of the track to see what was going on (preferably in site of flag station). If the pass was made before the station (or lights) then I think you have another argument on your side.

Again it wasn't me, so I can not say exactly what I would have done.

I also want to say I didn't mean to seem harsh with you (or against you) but in my mind it makes a big difference (positive) that you new that a yellow was out, and made a safe pass even under the "yellow" conditions... IE: you were aware of what you were doing, thought it was correct, and did it safely.

I commend that, to many people are unaware of what is going on infront or behind them, I thought for a bit you might have been one of them http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif But your not!!!

Raymond "I like to wave to the workers, not other drivers" Blethen

dickita15
06-02-2004, 08:15 AM
[quote]Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
[B] You mention you were not at the station yet... if you made the pass before the station it is legal right?

Uh, no. you can legally race to the flag under a local (single) yellow flag, but when you see a double yellow the entire course is a no passing zone. you must assume there is a flag behind you as well.

dick

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited June 02, 2004).]

ddewhurst
06-02-2004, 09:42 AM
***Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ***

Using your word. OBVIOUSLY I raised my hand full well knowing my car was safely under control using one hand. Take some of your GREAT knowledge & teach some of the dumb a$$'s that are on the tarck.

I should have known better than to post on this subject because the results are just like pi$$ing in the wind.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

apr67
06-02-2004, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***Obviously, raising your hand didn't do much good, and you would have been better served using both hands to control your car.
GRJ***


Gee. Maybe you need to go back to driving 101. I seem to be able to control the car with one hand, while shifting with the other, while pulling a bit over 1g and dicing in turn 12 at Road Atlanta.

Raising my balled fist for a few seconds, while driving in a straight line and braking should be a no brainer.

Maybe I am just a better driver than I thought.

Alan

RKramden
06-02-2004, 11:34 AM
And here I was hoping that this whole topic would have died weeks ago, long before it got to the insult stage.

moto62
06-02-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Raymond "I like to wave to the workers, not other drivers" Blethen

Thats it. I am waiving your right to free beer at my beer parties. Get It? Wave, waive? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif
Ray

grjones1
06-03-2004, 10:31 AM
Alan and David,
Gosh, you guys must be great drivers and I'm really sorry I suggested you couldn't stand on your ear and drive at the same time.
And Alan, "shifting" is part of the act of "controlling" your car, "waving" is not controlling your car. Further, I usually have my shifting accomplished before I start pulling 1 g, but I guess that's an "old-fashioned" method. (I've got sooo much to learn from you guys.)

Anyway, when you enter a yellow situation driving with one hand on the wheel and snap spin on the oil the car in front has laid down when his engine blew, and you break a wrist because the steering wheel suddenly pops from your one-handed death grip, remember my suggestion. But of course these things never happen to "expert" drivers.
GRJ
[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

oanglade
06-03-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Alan and David,
Gosh, you guys must be great drivers and I'm really sorry I suggested you couldn't stand on your ear and drive at the same time.
And Alan, "shifting" is part of the act of "controlling" your car, "waving" is not controlling your car.

Anyway, when you enter a yellow situation driving with one hand on the wheel and snap spin on the oil the car in front has laid down when his engine blew, and you break a wrist because the steering wheel suddenly popped from your one-handed death grip, remember my suggestion. But of course these things never happen to "expert" drivers.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]


Will it be OK if that happens because they were shifting when it happened?
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

grjones1
06-03-2004, 11:00 AM
[quote]Originally posted by oanglade:
[B]
Will it be OK if that happens because they were shifting when it happened?
http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
________________________________
It's ok with me if they wind up on their heads, as long as I'm not taken out with them.
Come on Ony, shifting is necessary, waving is not, and of course the more time spent with one hand on the wheel increases time spent with less control.
G

grjones1
06-03-2004, 11:52 AM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[
I will still continue to use a rasied fist to indicate that I am slowing for a non-normal reason.
________
apr67,
I'm continuing this ad nauseum, but just to attempt another point:
When I have (and sparsely) attempted to communicate with another driver and I used a fist, it mean't that I was not pleased with something he had done. See how these hand signals can be misinterpreted? You are raising a fist to warn of impending disaster I am raising a fist to indicate displeasure. How is the guy behind supposed to know what we are telling him? These questions are of course rhetorical.
G
___________________________________


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

apr67
06-03-2004, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Alan and David, Further, I usually have my shifting accomplished before I start pulling 1 g, but I guess that's an "old-fashioned" method. (I've got sooo much to learn from you guys.)


You are pulling 1g just sitting their typing a message. So unless you race in micro gravity http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I shift where the car needs it. Sometimes I move it up or back a bit to allow more concentration on driving, but it depends on the corner. Turn 12 at atlanta, it depends on traffic (not a very busy corner).

I apologize for insinuating that you were a poor driver, it was more of a knee jerk reaction to your assuming that a driver could not maintain control of the car while taking a hand off of the wheel. That was calling me (defacto) a bad driver and I resent that.

If the feeces was hitting the fan, then I would not bother to signal, too much work to be done already. Also, if you don't see the big event, you likely won't see my hand either.

Alan




[This message has been edited by apr67 (edited June 03, 2004).]

apr67
06-03-2004, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:

When I have (and sparsely) attempted to communicate with another driver and I used a fist, it mean't that I was not pleased with something he had done. See how these hand signals can be misinterpreted? You are raising a fist to warn of impending disaster I am raising a fist to indicate displeasure. How is the guy behind supposed to know what we are telling him?

Use the fist with the middle finger raised!

Geezer
06-03-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by apr67:
Use the fist with the middle finger raised!



NASA has that covered already http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

19.5.4 Other Hand Signals - driver
For safety reasons, hand signals not listed above are not acceptable. Displaying the
middle finger to another driver will be considered unsportsmanlike conduct. Displaying the middle finger to an Official is not smart and not recommended.



------------------
1988 CRX Si
ECHC H4 #38

grjones1
06-03-2004, 02:55 PM
Alan,
I see you are an engineer, so maybe you can help me on this. I understand 1g represents the point at which a car is cornering with adhesion in place at a measure equal to its weight, e.g., when cornering capability of a production car is listed in say Car and Driver, one usually reads .60 (for say a Fiesta) and .83 (for say, a 911). Which leads one to beleive that hopefiuuly well prepared IT cars may be capable of 1g. Where did I go wrong with my interpretation?
GRJ

PS
I reserve the middle finger for those guys who have attempted to remove me from the track, and I beat them anyway.
And Geezer,
Even though I cherish your comments, this is an IT forum and IT is after all an SCCA class, and NASA rules don't apply. But stay in here anyway, I enjoy hearing from you (if that matters).

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

grjones1
06-03-2004, 03:12 PM
I shift where the car needs it. Sometimes I move it up or back a bit to allow more concentration on driving, but it depends on the corner. Turn 12 at atlanta, it depends on traffic (not a very busy corner).
_______________________________________
Alan,
I was refering (ironically) to what I find a curious practice by some younger drivers (of course about 99% are young compared to me) of downshifting at or after the apex. I'll never see the logic of that technique, but again tell me if I'm wrong. Need I say, I'm old school and do my braking and downshifting in a straight line wherever possible.
G

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 03, 2004).]

apr67
06-03-2004, 03:44 PM
Shift where the car needs it, even if it is the apex. If I can safely.

Where the car needs it? Quite simply, when the calculated torque of the new gear will meet or exceed the calculated torque of the existing gear.

http://www.datsuns.com/Tech/whentoshift.htm

As for G's. You are pulling 1 G right now. (I'm pulling a bit more, big lunch!). That would be in the vertical axis. But I'm pulling Zero in the horizontal axis. 1g lateraly is a bit harder to do when typing. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

grjones1
06-03-2004, 04:02 PM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]Shift where the car needs it, even if it is the apex. If I can safely.

As for G's. You are pulling 1 G right now. (I'm pulling a bit more, big lunch!). That would be in the vertical axis.
________________________________________
Great stuff thanks. But, we were discussing what's happening in a corner and in that context, it's lateral G's we were considering. I understand your "vertical" aside, however.

Now if I'm having to downshift at or after the apex, I always figure I've screwed up my approach, but that's just me I guess. (And of course I'm not talking about the upshift, the only place I think I've ever had to upshift on an apex is the esses at Summit Point when the car would only pull 6ooo rpm, and I was simply running out of motor, but we have got that sorted out.

I must say I'm never comfortable shifting up or down at full lateral G's, I guess my left arm is not as strong as yours.

GRJ

apr67
06-03-2004, 06:08 PM
Its whats fastest. In some cars, with some gears, I can shift at otherwise awkward points (near an apex) and it makes the car faster (on the stopwatch).

Other cars (like my old ITB rabbit) tend to bind up in the corner and it makes shifting a very low percentage process (you may get the wrong gear, or no gear!).

And if I am hounding someone I may find it is an advantage in that instance to over rev instead of shifting, or to short shift.

Getting back on topic.

Hand Signals can be misunderstood. The driver seeing a signal needs to view a hand signal the same way they view a passing flag. I don't have to do anything at all, but I should do a little more looking up track and a little less looking at the cute spectator in the string bikini.

If during a yellow situation a driver gives the indications of a 'disabled vehicle' just to get you in trouble, they should be taken outside of the track, tied down, covered with honey and sprinkled with red ants.

Alan

lateapex911
06-03-2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by apr67:
I don't have to do anything at all, but I should do a little more looking up track and a little less looking at the cute spectator in the string bikini.
Alan


Alan please tell us about the tracks you frequent.....

sorry, but this thread has broken down to whiny name calling like no thread has here in a long time...I wanted some levity.

Resume whining!


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

grjones1
06-03-2004, 09:20 PM
Now Jake, we had stopped whininng and were getting along famously when you broke in to find out where the string bikinis are. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
GRJ

apr67
06-03-2004, 11:04 PM
Moroso Motorsports Park.

In west palm BEACH.

Need I say more?

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

p.s. Their used to be a worker with big hooters that worked everyones favorite corner at hallet.. I wonder if she is still there.

gsbaker
06-04-2004, 09:04 AM
Go easy on Jake, guys. He's responsible for collecting the hot tub attendants for the First Annual ARRC IT.com Gathering this year.

He needs all the research help he can get. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Gregg

grjones1
06-04-2004, 09:11 AM
[quote]Originally posted by apr67:
[B]Moroso Motorsports Park.
__________________________________
Remember guys we are in mixed company. But I'm wondering how many missed shifts may have occurred at that "favorite corner"?

And Alan I heartily agree with your last yellow flag comments.
GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited June 04, 2004).]

planet6racing
07-20-2004, 02:23 PM
Well, this certainly got cleared up in the September Fastrack, didn't it... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

grjones1
07-23-2004, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
Well, this certainly got cleared up in the September Fastrack, didn't it... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif


Oh well. I earnestly believe we would take a giant step forward if one time the appeals people would make things at least as unclear as they began rather than blurring the issue beyond all possible resolution.

That decision makes about as much sense as declaring a 2.0 liter, 10:1 compression, 4-wheeled disc braked, aerodynamic, and tri-linked rear suspensioned Beetle an ITC car.
Volkswagen has once again exercised its influence upon SCCA decisions. It's bad enough they get an extra 100 cc's for their Sciroccos and cams that never saw a production Rabbit. There goes the neighborhood. Anyone want to buy a well developed Fiesta for Driver's school, I've have officially become outdated?

G. Robert Jones

apr67
07-24-2004, 11:48 PM
Jones.

Nice cross flame bait.

And what makes a NB aerodynamic?

grjones1
07-25-2004, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by apr67:
Jones.

Nice cross flame bait.

And what makes a NB aerodynamic?


Compared to a 142 Volvo and my Fiesta the NB is plenty aerodynamic.
GRJ

lateapex911
07-25-2004, 02:54 AM
Jeeez...it's spreading like a heavy gas!

Lets keep the Beetle crying game to the proper thread, eh?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

four27
07-25-2004, 11:06 AM
Ok this issue is dead but here is my last coment.

the decision made by the appeals court did surprise me and some of the facts they stated were not what I heard and said at the track. AT NO TIME DID ANYONE ASK ME AT THE TRACK IF i SAW THE DOUBLE YELLOW NOR DID I TELL THEM I SAW IT OR NOT. I think someone at the track would have said to me" If you blew the yellow it is moot about the mechanical breakdown issue" It would have been stupid to tell them I did not see the double yellow and then protest the mechanical breakdown issue. If it happened as reported I would have cheerfully accepted the loss of position. I certainly would not of protested the mechanical breakdown signal if I had missed the flag. Not sure where the local Steward got his info but it wasnt from me. And, if the facts were as the SOM says, why did the local protest court change my penalty from DQ to loss of one position? I plan on asking the SOM the above questions. I mean if I admitted I had blown the double yellow that is as blatant as it gets and with the SCCA position of getting tough on yellow flag violations, why the softer penalty?

Somehow this went from interpretation of a factual issue to a credability issue.

grjones1
07-25-2004, 04:30 PM
four27,
Would you believe sometimes many in the SCCA have such large egos they cannot allow themselves to acknowlege truth, let alone admit a mistake. As soon as I recover from this reclass of the NB, I'll be requesting a clarification on the wave-by situation. My sympathies are with you, but consider it a victory in that at least they reduced the penalty.

G. Robert

grjones1
07-25-2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Jeeez...it's spreading like a heavy gas!

Lets keep the Beetle crying game to the proper thread, eh?



Sorry you are offended by more than one subject at a time Jake. Write some more user manuals. You need the practice.
GRJ

lateapex911
07-25-2004, 10:35 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
Sorry you are offended by more than one subject at a time Jake. Write some more user manuals. You need the practice.
GRJ

Actually, I don't think I do! Looks like you got it! Whoo Hoo! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Point being that this thread has NOTHING to do with the New Beetle....You started another thread for that. Sticking to it makes the moderators job a whole lot easier.

(Although the moderator has a long leash here at IT.com)



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

four27
07-26-2004, 09:51 PM
Originally posted by mgyip:
Per the sacred GCR which has been quoted ad nauseum on this thread, ALL vehicles MUST have at least one working brake light. In the IT world, if hand signals beyond GCR direction are detrimental then the corner workers and stewards should immediately commence a "hand signal" log just as they log metal-to-metal contact - at the end of each session, the offending drivers should be beaten severely with GCRs.

This whole argument is frivolous at best - if a competitor opts to provide additional notification to a fellow competitor, so be it. If you chose to not provide said additional notification, so be it. In other words, who f**king cares - the world will not stop revolving if the competitor in front of me waves a hand or not to notify me of a double-yellow situation.

You would care if it cost you the race. the GCR which we are supposed to regard as a bible makes no provision for waving off a competitor for a yellow flag. It clearly does make such a provision for a mechanical breakdown. If the mechanical breakdown provision were not in the GCR I would have no problem with a driver signalling for a yellow flag. Bottom line-- do we follow the GCR or not? If not I would like a copy of the other rule book.

zracer22
07-26-2004, 09:52 PM
Holy Crap!!! As I read this thread, i was forming my reply about yellow flags and passing. But after the last 10 or so posts, I forgot what I was going to say.

Yellow flags and passing: This isn't rocket science. If there is a yellow flag...don't pass! If passing is absolutely unavoidable under the yellow, then it will be obvious to the corner worker. If you "think" a driver is waiving you past don't pass. If you "know" a driver is waiving you past, than go ahead and pass.

Think!!!! After all, what is more important; one finishing position or someone's life? Three years ago I was hit in T1 at MidOhio under a waiving yellow flag. The overall race leader thought it was more important to keep the lead than it was to lift and be safe. End result was my car totalled, his car totalled, a fire, and many persons being put at risk.

Quite frankly, it concerns me that a licensed racer needs to ask "when is it ok to pass under yellow?"

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

If you have to ask yourself, "should I or shouldn't I pass" don't. It situations mandating a pass under yellow, "should I or shouldn't I pass" won't enter your mind, you will be busy avoiding the car in question.

Back to the VW Beetle: Is that the E36 Beetle that we're discussing? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

grjones1
07-26-2004, 10:05 PM
Originally posted by zracer22:

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif [/B]

We have a rule for passing under yellow also: it's when a competitor slows and raises his hand indicating he is disabled. This is not a "theory", it's a rule!.
GRJ

four27
07-26-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by zracer22:
Holy Crap!!! As I read this thread, i was forming my reply about yellow flags and passing. But after the last 10 or so posts, I forgot what I was going to say.

Yellow flags and passing: This isn't rocket science. If there is a yellow flag...don't pass! If passing is absolutely unavoidable under the yellow, then it will be obvious to the corner worker. If you "think" a driver is waiving you past don't pass. If you "know" a driver is waiving you past, than go ahead and pass.

Think!!!! After all, what is more important; one finishing position or someone's life? Three years ago I was hit in T1 at MidOhio under a waiving yellow flag. The overall race leader thought it was more important to keep the lead than it was to lift and be safe. End result was my car totalled, his car totalled, a fire, and many persons being put at risk.

Quite frankly, it concerns me that a licensed racer needs to ask "when is it ok to pass under yellow?"

The disabled car theory is silly. We have a flag for that also. FYI, that flag is white!

If you have to ask yourself, "should I or shouldn't I pass" don't. It situations mandating a pass under yellow, "should I or shouldn't I pass" won't enter your mind, you will be busy avoiding the car in question.

Back to the VW Beetle: Is that the E36 Beetle that we're discussing? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

The white flag is displayed by a corner worker--not a racer. Read the GCR -- clearly sets out the provision for passing under double yellow. What you are saying is if a car breaks down on a double yellow you and the other racers have to pull in behind him and wait for a white flag just to be absolutely certain. Lets face it all drivers must make a decision when a car ahead is brtoke down as to when to proceed around him and continue under caution behind the pace car. the GCR makes good provisions for this and I thought I was following them.

You should also know that the first SCCA national person who reviewed my case thought I had an excellent point. Obviously there are is many theories and posit0ons on this point. I would still like SCCA to clarify the waving hand rule. It is not the outcome of this race I an concerned about it is the principal of the SCCA not taking this oppurtunity to give their take on the situation. Even the Supreme Court of the US explains their reasons and the Why behind their opinions and that is for the sole reason that we citizens have a guide for expected behavior when we are confronted with the same situation.

zracer22
07-26-2004, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by four27:
You would care if it cost you the race.

That's exactly what my last post was refering to. I would care a lot more if it cost me a leg, arm, life or my race car!

We have yellow flags for one purpose, and that is to keep everyone safe. In your situation, you "thought" and you thought wrong. Result was your pass under a yellow, and then you waiving him past under the same yellow.


Originally posted by four27:
What you are saying is if a car breaks down on a double yellow you and the other racers have to pull in behind him and wait for a white flag just to be absolutely certain.

No that's not what I'm saying. If a car breaks under double yellow what's the big hurry about getting around him? You passed because you "thought" he was waiving you by. Not because you knew he was broke. Had he been broke, it would have been quite obvious after a couple hundred more yards and then everyone could go around him. It was a full course yellow, you had nothing to lose by being patient.

zracer22
07-26-2004, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
We have a rule for passing under yellow also: it's when a competitor slows and raises his hand indicating he is disabled. This is not a "theory", it's a rule!.
GRJ

No, here's what the rules say.
NOTE: A driver may encounter several flags before reaching the emergency area. The requirements are still the same "SLOW DOWN, NO PASSING."

9.2.2 ".....Drivers of cars that are disabled or cannot keep the pace should not hold up the field. These drivers shall signal that they are disabled by raising an arm, pulling to the side AND staying well of the racing line"

No where does it say you wave your hand to indicate that you are disabled. Three actions make it clear; raising hand, moving over and staying WELL off the line. In this case the driver didn't do any of these.

[This message has been edited by zracer22 (edited July 26, 2004).]

zracer22
07-26-2004, 10:50 PM
Where did racers get the impression that we weren't supposeed to slow down for yellow flags, either standing, waiving or double? This notion that it's OK to maintain race speed thru a yellow flag is pathetic. We've all heard someone talking about how a standing yellow doesn't mean slow down, it only means that there is something a car off of the track so don't pass. The rules are quite clear. If you see yellow, SLOW DOWN and DON'T PASS.

Come on guys....this is club racing. We do this for fun, not for fame, fortune and women! Our rules aren't the same as some pro racing rules. The only thing we have on the line is our lives and our cash, and we risk those for the thrill of racing. Our safety rules are there to make our hobby (not profession) as safe as possible. So a yellow flag costs you a race or a couple positions, big damn deal! At least you are driving your car onto the trailer at the end of the event and will be back again for the next race!

Yeah, maybe I am sounding a little pig-headed about this. Let's see how you sound after you have to have your car lifted onto your trailer because some knucklehead didn't slow down at a yellow flag!

CaptainWho
07-27-2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by zracer22:
The rules are quite clear. If you see yellow, SLOW DOWN and DON'T PASS.


Well, in practice, the DON'T PASS part is required, while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived. I mean, there's slowing down, and there's SLOWING DOWN. Sunday during one of the regional races at Road Atlanta, we had a full course caution (double yellow), with the safety car out, at one point due to a serious, car-on-fire-on-the-track incident.

A group of four cars was just in front of the overall leader when the double yellows came out. The caution situation took several laps to resolve, and those four cars (actually, the first of the four) was not even (apparently) attempting to close the gap to the pack, which was the best part of a two-point-five mile track.

I guess it was a problem for the emergency workers, having to dodge and direct two separate packs on the track, or maybe it just aggravated someone in the tower, I don't know. But Race Control had the corners signal to those four (I think it was four) drivers to close up on the pack (I was on comm, so I heard the 'command' directly with my own ears). To regain that amount of space meant that those four guys hauled ass when they weren't in the vicinity of the incident. It only took a lap or two for them to close up on the pack once they caught on to all of the hand waving from the corner stations.

They'd already been completely around the course for two or three laps under full-course caution, behind the safety car, so they knew exactly where the incident was, they didn't race, nobody tried to pass, and it was all good.

The moral of the story is, as stated before, there's slowing down and being cautious, and there's SLOWING DOWN and potentially being a problem. It all depends on the context.

BTW, the difference between theory and practice? In theory there isn't a difference, in practice, there is.

In that same incident, we had a pass under way at our corner as the flags came out. It was so close that with a Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball, you couldn't tell who was in front at the time the flags came out, especially if you were involved in hoisting the flags and listening on the comm and grabbing flags, and communicating with your partner on the corner.

Apparently, the fellow making the pass got worried that he'd passed under the yellow (we couldn't tell, and didn't call him in). The next corner saw him letting the other car back past him, thinking there might have been a pass under yellow. Instead of immediately jumping his feces, the other turn told Control they'd like to confer with my corner when the time was right.

Things were pretty squirrely for several minutes on the net, then Control let me and the next turn talk directly. He told me what he'd seen, my partner and I compared notes between us and with the other corner's description, told him what we'd seen, and we all agreed that it'd been a righteous action.

We agreed that we didn't feel an infraction had occurred and safety wasn't compromised, Control listened to the whole exchange, noone said another word about it, the Chief Steward didn't query us, and AFAIK the driver wasn't sure we'd even noticed.

So, I guess the point of this (long) missive is that it all depends on context. Working corners has given me a whole new view of the flags as they affect me when driving. Safety is the most important thing, and a bit of caution and discretion go a long way in that regard. But you can't get so wrapped up in a fixed interpretation of ambigous rules that nothing positive happens, and the rules can only be ambiguous, unless they're updated hourly and run to many volumes.

Net-net, everyone has to exercise good sense and reasonable judgement for this stuff to work out at all. And people that consistently don't exercise good sense and reasonable judgement must be educated or expelled.

I'll give every driver one rule of thumb, though. If the yellow flag is waving, something serious is about to appear in your windshield, or one of us "white suits" is out there assiting one of your colleagues. Waving yellow is a more immediate threat in most circumstances than even red, because waving yellow means it's RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU! :-)

And if you hit me, I'll spit on your dog. After I get out of the hospital. And if it's worse than that, I'll h'aint you. ;-)

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

grjones1
07-27-2004, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by zracer22:
If a car breaks under double yellow what's the big hurry about getting around him? you had nothing to lose by being patient.

Zracer22,
Wow. I'm really impressed with your ability to read minds. And where in this whole discussion did anyone say you aren't supposed to "slow for a yellow"??!!! Please read before you comment.
And the "big hurry" is about losing 200-300 yards on the lead pack. Yes we want to be as safe as possible, but if you are not in this sport to race and to simply be safe, I suggest you play golf. But be sure to duck when someone yells "four" or waves a yellow flag.
GRJ


[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

ITSRX7
07-27-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by zracer22:

Yeah, maybe I am sounding a little pig-headed about this. Let's see how you sound after you have to have your car lifted onto your trailer because some knucklehead didn't slow down at a yellow flag!

...easy...that's not what happened to you at LRP...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

zracer22
07-27-2004, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...easy...that's not what happened to you at LRP...

AB



I've never been to LRP!

zracer22
07-27-2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by CaptainWho:
Well, in practice, the DON'T PASS part is required, while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived. I mean, there's slowing down, and there's SLOWING DOWN. Sunday during one of the regional races at Road Atlanta, we had a full course caution (double yellow), with the safety car out, at one point due to a serious, car-on-fire-on-the-track incident.


Now that sounds like a bad call by race control. Car on fire on track should be a red flag. But putting the fire aside, it sounds like all slowed down for the yellow until they knew where the trouble was and then went fast to catch the field away from the incedent.

But to say "while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived." it flat out wrong.

Like you said, we need to use good judgement, and every situation can be different. But that in no way changes the rules.

The rules say slow down, but they don't say you must remain at a slow pace for the entire full course yellow.

zracer22
07-27-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]Zracer22,
Wow. I'm really impressed with your ability to read minds. B] I'm not reading minds, just the rules!


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B] And where in this whole discussion did anyone say you aren't supposed to "slow for a yellow"??!!! Please read before you comment.B] Maybe you should read my post and you will see that I was talking about things said at the track.


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B]
And the "big hurry" is about losing 200-300 yards on the lead pack. B]
You fell that far behind before the yellow, you'll just fall that far behind again. If your not capable of making up 200-300 yards on the pack under a full course yellow, you won't be able to hang with them at race speed.


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B] Yes we want to be as safe as possible, but if you are not in this sport to race and to simply be safe, I suggest you play golf.B] Who's reading minds now?


Originally posted by grjones1:
[B] But be sure to duck when someone yells "four" or waves a yellow flag.
GRJ
B] I do cover when someone yells "four", and I also acknowledge a yellow by doing what the rules say!

BTW, Do you always resort to personal attacks when you can't win a debate?

grjones1
07-27-2004, 04:39 PM
[quote]Originally posted by zracer22[quote]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

four27
07-27-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote]Originally posted by zracer22[quote]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]

four27
07-27-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote]Originally posted by zracer22[quote]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited July 27, 2004).]
GRJ--- This whole thing could be fixed if SCCA would authorize a driver initiated signal that a driver could use to warn of yellow flags if a certain driver didnt think the guy behind is seeing the flag.. I think the incar rapid waving of a arm/hand could be the yellow flag warning and an arm outside of the car waiving is a mechanical breakdown signal and ok to pass. the raised closed fist signal would be;"I am pitting"-- which would mean you couldnt pass him until he started for the pits.


Seems it would be an easy change and clarify this whole thing.

grjones1
07-27-2004, 06:58 PM
four27,
I appreciate your thoughts, but I think we've got enough superfluous signaling going on out there as is without trying to codify it. And I really don't think arms ouside the car are ever a good idea. You keep trying though, someone needs to straighten something out, God knows I haven't been much help in 20 years.
Regards,
G. Robert

CaptainWho
07-28-2004, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by zracer22:
But to say "while the SLOW DOWN part can sometimes be waived." it flat out wrong.

I'm sorry, ZRacer22, I didn't make myself clear. I don't mean you shouldn't slow down at all. I mean you don't have to slow down to 10 mph.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

oanglade
07-29-2004, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by four27:
GRJ--- This whole thing could be fixed if SCCA would authorize a driver initiated signal that a driver could use to warn of yellow flags if a certain driver didnt think the guy behind is seeing the flag..

I don't think that there is any need for this or that it is a good idea at all. I don't want to have to pay attention to the corner stations, what is going on inside my car, my line/driving, the cars around me AND also have to worry about what other drivers are doing inside their cars. We already have a procedure for warning drivers: Corner workers and flags. I don't want to have to think that I need to see if the guy behind me saw the yellow flag otherwise I need to signal him or he might protest me for not signaling him or something.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

four27
07-29-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by oanglade:
I don't think that there is any need for this or that it is a good idea at all. I don't want to have to pay attention to the corner stations, what is going on inside my car, my line/driving, the cars around me AND also have to worry about what other drivers are doing inside their cars. We already have a procedure for warning drivers: Corner workers and flags. I don't want to have to think that I need to see if the guy behind me saw the yellow flag otherwise I need to signal him or he might protest me for not signaling him or something.

Anubis
08-01-2004, 03:50 PM
Wow.

------------------
Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

No more the small one, the weak one, the frightened one.
Running from beatings, deflating.
I'm becoming more than a man. More than you ever were.
Driven and burning to rise beyond Jesus.