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Mike Cox
07-19-2004, 09:40 AM
I was having a conversation with a tech official at our driver's school Sunday and the topic of rules came up and whether a certain car was in violation of the rules.

The car in question (1st gen RX7) had his headlights removed and the headlight covers sealed off with metal. The official I was talking to stated that he didn't feel that this gave the car a performance advantage therefore he considered it to be legal.

I then questioned him on the legality of removing the glass window and mechanicals of the window in the driver's door(of a car without Nascar bars)and was again told he was OK with that and wouldn't allow a protest of that either.

To which I questioned him to show me in the GCR where this was legal to do. After looking in the GCR and were unable to find the passage that allowed this (headlights) I asked him, "when did he become the offical in charge of deciding what was or wasn't legal".

It seems to me that this "tech" official (and possibly others) was instead of following the rulebook, was interjecting his own opinion as to what was written.

If we have rules written and one of the rules is, "if it doesn't say you can do it, you can't do it", then why do we have officials going beyond the rulebook and deciding cases outside their realm of authority?

Maybe I missed just the memo in Fasttrak?

Mike

ChrisCamadella
07-19-2004, 09:54 AM
If you think someone is cheating, you should protest him or her, and allow the SOM's to determine the outcome. It is clearly NOT the tech inspector's area to decide on such things - for him to actually do something, he has to bring the item to the attention of the stewards, who then have to file an RFA (Request for Action), which is essentially the same thing as a protest. It's a lot of paperwork, and is rarely done, particularly at a regional, by a tech inspector.

For something so obvious as this, I'd probably just go have a chat with the competitor in question, who probably doesn't even realize that his modification is against the rules.

YMMV, of course.

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

Geo
07-19-2004, 09:57 AM
That's disturbing news.

I'd have sought out the SOM.

If I didn't get satisfaction there I'd probably send a letter to Topeka.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Mike Cox
07-19-2004, 11:17 AM
it's not the competitor I'm concerned with. I know how to handle that situation. It's the statement by the tech inspector that HE doesn't feel it gives the car an advantage and therefore HE feels like it isn't illegal.

You can believe that at a regional race, this problem will take on a whole different light but at the time of the discussion (at a driver's school), it was just that, a discussion.

Now my question is , since when do the tech inspectors decide what gives or doesn't give a car an advantage?


[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited July 19, 2004).]

planet6racing
07-19-2004, 11:21 AM
They don't. They are there to check the safety items. It's up to the competitors to protest that. The SOM will be the one who makes the decision. He/She might solicit the advice of Tech, but it is still his/her decision.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

ChrisCamadella
07-19-2004, 11:31 AM
Geo,

Which part is the disturbing news? That's not how it works? For the SOM's to get involved with a particular issue, you have to file a protest, and put up your $25. Then, they make a ruling on the matter.

If you simply go ASK them (the SOM's), they might possibly tell you their opinion (but just as likely not), but nothing counts until either a protest or an RFA has been filed, which are essentially the same thing. That's what the rules say. Refer to section 6.11.4 for info on an RFA.

If you look under 6.18.1.C, you'll see that the tech guy can report to the Chief Stew that a car doesn't meet the rules - and then the CS can file an RFA (see above). This isn't true, BTW, of safety rules - the tech guy CAN disqualify a car for not meeting the safety rules, but that's not the case here.

Sending a letter to Topeka won't do anything either, unless the SOM's have decided, you don't like their decision, and you have provided additional information to the appeals board, information that the SOM's did not have available to them (section 15.5).

None of this stuff is my opinion, per se - it's just how the system works, according to the rules. At regionals and drivers' schools, it's sometimes done a little more casually, but it's how it's supposed to work just the same.

BTW, you can also protest the actions of the tech guy if you don't like them for some reason - but again, you have to put up your $25 and put it in writing for the SOM's to decide. But this guy, aside from just plain being wrong, didn't do anything outside his authority. It's not (necessarily) his job to police the cars for legality, only safety. Whether or not he would 'allow' a protest of something has nothing to do with him, it only has to do with the SOM's, and they have to pay attention to every protest that is filed within the guidelines spelled out in the rules.

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

ddewhurst
07-19-2004, 02:11 PM
***The official I was talking to stated that he didn't feel that this gave the car a performance advantage therefore he considered it to be legal.***

This Tech Offical needs some learning. I would love to do some ILLEGAL lightening of the front of my ITA/7 1st gen RX-7. & put the weight in an advantages place. This Tech Offical is total wrong.

***It's not (necessarily) his job to police the cars for legality, only safety.***

It may not be his/her job to police the cars for legality but it sure as hell is his/her responsibility to understand the rules & the advantages of someone lighting a car in one place & puting the weight in another place.

Mike, this sounds like another one of those deals where it's up to the competitor to do the first talk with the car driver/owner & take it from there.

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

its66
07-19-2004, 02:45 PM
Mike,
You know what HAS to be done. I guess you've just been a little busy with the Doc lately and haven't had time to fill out the paperwork. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I'm not surprised that the vehicle was brought back out like that.

See you in August.

Jim

dickita15
07-19-2004, 03:11 PM
boy this kind of stuff is frustrating. I love scca and I am both a driver and an official. Yes the tech inspector was mistaken and he very well may have been taught that his job is to look for safety problems not class legality, but if you decided that the driver needed to be protested he would not even be part of the process. his opinion is no more binding than asking your wife. everyone is wrong once in a while. this was his day.
one of the things I teach my friends about navagating scca is if you got an answer you did not like, you probably asked the wrong person.
dick patullo

biovic
07-19-2004, 03:11 PM
Funny I should read this today. I just smashed the front end of my car yesterday and shattered the glass headlights. Yes, they were taped, but because of the impact the tape was torn and half the light spilled out on the track in large and small glass pieces. Since the concrete barrier was very near the corner it went on the racing line I'm sure. Now, I have to replace the light assemblies, and luckily I have a spare car to scavenge from. Speaking about safety issues, wouldn't putting sheet metal in place of the glass lights be more safe than putting in glass? I can see that the current rules don't allow it, but I would be perfectly fine with changing the rules to not only allow but encourage this. I suppose some people run their cars in 12 hour enduros so need the lights, but there are far less of those races.

Mike Cox
07-19-2004, 03:15 PM
Jim, you know the car, I was just seeing how the tech people are gonna react when I drop the hammer.

You wouldn't believe all that happened. You had to be there to see it all, but it was entertaining to say the least.

He even came over looking to pick a fight or something with Buddy. I'd have paid $29.95 for the pay-per-view to see that one. I figured one hit, one splat and we'd all be going home for the duration.

Typical I guess anyway, the tech people have no clue in as far as the finer points that we discuss here. Guess we have to be on our toes and make sure we are prepared.

Call me

ITSRX7
07-19-2004, 03:26 PM
I guess the bottom line for me is that most SCCA officials need to understand that they represent the club. Most racers don't know WHO to ask specifically, but they can usually find SOMEONE that is working the event.

Having said that, it would be great if people who didn't make the decisions, could say so. I get asked many questions about classifications and rules as a member of the ITAC. I always end or preface my comments on DECISIONS by making sure the person knows that the CRB and the BoD are the people who are ultimately responsible.

I have no problem with a tech inspector expressing an opinion like the one above. I DO have a problem with them 'disallowing' a protest they wouldn't even be involved in. If this was a newbie, he may have thought he was SOL on the entire process.

Speak only of what you know - and point people in the right direction when you don't.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

lateapex911
07-19-2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Mike Cox:
...........The car in question (1st gen RX7) had his headlights removed and the headlight covers sealed off with metal. The official I was talking to stated that he didn't feel that this gave the car a performance advantage therefore he considered it to be legal.

I then questioned him on the legality of removing the glass window and mechanicals of the window in the driver's door(of a car without Nascar bars)and was again told he was OK with that and wouldn't allow a protest of that either.......Mike


What we have here is a classic issue that arises in many organizations, especially volunteer driven ones. And the solution needs to be systematic.

The guy was flat wrong in all dimensions. First he was passing judgement where he should be assisting in a rulebook reading, and second, he was not following proper protocols, by directing the cometitor to the proper procedures and officials..

One of our problems in SCCA is the lack of qualified volunteers....many of us drivers are capable of performing in a number of official capacities, but for various reasons, we don't. The result is that many regions must accept whomever steps up to the plate willing to put in a long day in the hot sun dealing with surly, rushed competitors, all for a free meal, a few waters and some tap beer.

I see a number of solutions.

One, the scope of training needs to address the protocols of the position. I believe this is being addresed, to some degree, by SCCAs "Leadership" training.

Second, we as drivers need to step up and put in some time at the track out of our cars. I know of a driver who spends a few days a year aiding the tech guys. He is one of those "voice of reason" guys, and his little comment here and there go a long way to help tech run efficiently and give competitors a good tech experience.

Part of what the regions management should do is know the guys and gals that volunteer their time to staff the events, and pair those with known issues, such as the tech guy you mention, with an appropriate foil.



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Geo
07-19-2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by ChrisCamadella:
Which part is the disturbing news? That's not how it works?

Well shoot. I must confess ignorance. Thank you for setting me straight. Until tonight I did not know the correct process for protests. Good on one hand I guess and certainly bad on another.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

CaptainWho
07-20-2004, 12:40 AM
There has been some angst regarding protests about certain IT competitors amongst racers I know. They planned to file a technical protest, wrote up the paperwork, wrote the check, and the chief of tech said he "would not allow the protest". They dropped it. I'm talking about 30 year SCCA veterans with many technical protests under their belts, not newbies like me. So I'd guess there's some gray area (and maybe politicking) between the process defined in the GCR and the reality of the situation. But hey, I'm a newbie (still on my Novice license). What the hell do I know.

------------------
Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

[This message has been edited by CaptainWho (edited July 20, 2004).]

ChrisCamadella
07-20-2004, 06:04 AM
I don't know where that happens - I hope it doesn't happen too frequently!

As others have said, the Chief of Tech has nothing to do with mechanical protests, really. You write up your protest (and the Chief Stew has a nifty form for you to fill in for this purpose), and you give it and your money to him (the Chief Stew).

HE then contacts the SOM's, who read your protest, and start evaluating it. Generally speaking, there are three or so SOM's at a a typical regional race, and they decide your protest as a committee. No Chief of Tech about it, unless they ask for his opinion, which they may or may not consider.

Don't forget that you do have to file your mechanical protest BEFORE the race per GCR 13.3.A

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

ChrisCamadella
07-20-2004, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***The official I was talking to stated that he didn't feel that this gave the car a performance advantage therefore he considered it to be legal.***


If you refer to Section 13.4, the last paragraph reads, "In the event a car is found to be in non-compliance, a claim that the non-compliant item(s) offer no performance advantage shall have no influence on any ruling."

So, in other words, it doesn't make any difference if there was a performance advantage or not. It either meets the rules as written, or it doesn't...

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

ddewhurst
07-20-2004, 07:25 AM
***Originally posted by ddewhurst:***
***The official I was talking to stated that he didn't feel that this gave the car a performance advantage therefore he considered it to be legal.***

Chris, when you start being a "I know the ONLY answer to the rules person" you need to start with facts. ddewhurst did not do the above original post stated so by you. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

dickita15
07-20-2004, 08:29 AM
also most drivers do not know that the chief steward can not refuse the protest. he must give it to the chairman of the som. only the chairman can deny the protest for cause (like you filed it to late)
dick

bldn10
07-20-2004, 10:53 AM
While this thread has raised and discussed important issues, I think the mindset of the specific tech official is revealed in Mike's first sentence: "I was having a conversation with a tech official at our driver's school Sunday ...." First, it was a "conversation" and his attitude might have been different if he had perceived it was a serious accusation that was leading to a formal protest. Second and perhaps most important, it was a drivers school not a race. Many students arrive at their first school w/ a newly-built car, a borrowed car, a rented car, a shared car, etc. They have gone to considerable trouble and expense: getting their Novice Permit, maybe buying a suit, helmet, etc., renting a car, travelling a long distance, etc., etc. At least here in the Mid-South Region we are going to bend over backward to allow the guy to get his school in even if his car might not be legal in every respect for competition (as long as it is safe). (I wonder how many of us got caught at our first race this year by the 2-year harness rule but were allowed to get by?) On the other hand such newbies often are relying on the tech inspectors to point out problems w/ their cars, and the inspectors should at the very least identify infractions, maybe make a Log Book notation, and (if it's not a safety issue) tell them to have it fixed by the next event. Yea, I know the rules are the same for schools and races but I don't have a problem w/ a little slack being cut in the former. Imagine the first impression a novice would get of the SCCA when he shows up all bright eyed and bushy-tailed for his first school and is sent home for not having headlights. :-( Now when it comes to a real race, it's a different matter. JMHO

ChrisCamadella
07-20-2004, 11:15 AM
Very well said, and I couldn't agree more...

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

ddewhurst
07-20-2004, 07:28 PM
We can all write the cute yada, yada, yada what if's. Read what was said by Mike. He & the Tech Offical were talking/having a conversation about two ITCS rules...............................

Skip all your what if & it could have been this & it could have been that. Take the two friken ITCS rules points stated, that's all & in your humble judgement is the Tech Offical correct or in correct.

bldn10, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????

Chris, were the Tech Officals responses per the ITCS correct or incorrect ???????

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

lateapex911
07-20-2004, 07:53 PM
I will say this.....I have heard of many instances now where officials have either discouraged or stonewalled protest requests....

This fellow in tech is part of that group which includes stewards that are well informed.

In a club where self policing carries such a high social cost to the protester, such resistance is one more hurdle that we don't need.

I understand that protests should not be written friviously, but I don't think we are in a position where the number of "nusance" protests is more than a small percentage.

I understand that nobody wants to spend all night at the track, miss the beer party, etc, but stewards and officials must never act in a way that hinders the protocols and procedures.

The above comment is more general in nature, and not aimed at this particular situation. Of course schools operate differently....but the question wasn't answered correctly in any event. The official should have either gotten out the rulebook and helped with the reading, or sent the question up the pipe, or both. In any case, passing judgement that the cars modifications were fine because they didn't, in his (wrong) opinion, enhance performance, was flat out of line, and 100% wrong.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited July 20, 2004).]

bldn10
07-21-2004, 11:05 AM
No, David, the guy did not correctly state "the Rules." We all know that "performance advantage" is not generally a relevant concept. Feel better now? But I stand by my position. I think anyone who would protest a guy's car at a school for a headlight is a real #$%hole. Perhaps the tech guy should have told Mike that he was right but to give the guy a break and let him do the school w/ the admonishment that he would not be allowed to race until such obvious flaws were corrected or, at most, reported it to the Chief Steward. Anyway, as Chris pointed out, it's not the tech's place to interpret and enforce such rules. This is like engaging a corner worker in a discussion of the "rules of the road" in the GCR - they may have their opinion but it is just that because they don't decide protests. OTOH if he really thought that was what the Rule said, that is somewhat disconcerting. But I doubt that is the case.
David, are you advocating that all rules be enforced to the fullest extent in every circumstance w/o any discretion? If so, then I assume that when you get stopped by a cop for speeding and he only gives you a warning, you correct him and demand the ticket the law calls for. Right? :-)

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 11:17 AM
I think that anyone who shows up to a drivers school with a car that illegal that he/she owns should instantly fail the drivers school. One of the point of the drivers school is to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of the GCR. If your car is that illegal, you have not read the GCR and therefore you fail.

Mean? Yes, it is. Will it anger a few people? Yes, it will. But, it will definitely drive home the point and stop the questions like "how do I protest?" or some of the other common ones we hear that are clearly covered in the GCR.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

ITSRX7
07-21-2004, 11:20 AM
Maybe I missed something but what the heck kind of school are we talking about? If there are no trophies and no 'real' racing for timd position, what could be the basis for a protest?

He is a newbie: ask him if he owns a GCR, point out the illegalities and educate him in a nice, professional, and friendly manner. Simple.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 11:34 AM
Andy:

I know what you are saying. But, if you have to ask him if he owns a GCR, how can he pass the school?

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Knestis
07-21-2004, 11:46 AM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I think that anyone who shows up to a drivers school with a car that illegal that he/she owns should instantly fail the drivers school. ...

Having gone through the driver's school process again after years, I have a new perspective on it. I'd suggest a middle ground between sending people home if there are irregularities with their cars and what I saw as common practice - pretty much ignoring ANY aspect of legality other than blatant safety issues.

Part of the school process should be a real tech inspection that points out any issues that the inspectors see. This process would do several things including setting a tone for new drivers, helping them understand that there IS such thing as "legal" and "illegal."

The message would be, "our priority here is to get you licensed and legality is not really an issue - since there is NO race. But you need to (a) learn the GCR, and (B) get your car right before it starts to matter."

K

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 12:05 PM
Kirk:

Did your drivers school incorporate a test of the GCR? Mine did. It didn't cover the specific classes, but it definitely did test if I had read and understood the main GCR sections.

I like your idea of a real tech inspection. However, I don't think we can rely on tech for it as they are already overwhelmed at the D/S with giving (or re-giving) full inspections of all vehicles. Maybe a board of peers? You'd have some of the more senior racers (or those that know the GCR) looking at all the cars, possibly even before the show up to drivers school.

But, then again, this is removing the personal responsibility of the soon-to-be racer of reading and understanding the GCR...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Mike Cox
07-21-2004, 12:11 PM
OK EVERYBODY TAKE A DEEP BREATH !

I never said the car was being driven in the driver's school. I said (once again) I was having a conversation with a tech inspector AT the driver's school.

Remember the thread I had back in May concerning the car my student rented that car and the owner gave my student a motorcycle helmet to use? I was asking the tech inspector certain questions to make sure I was clear in the tech inspector's thought process before I proceeded forward with dropping the hammer on that guy at the next regional race.

Thanks for all the input on this, I now have a plan as to how and when to slam the hammer.

Mike

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 12:18 PM
Mike:

Fear not, I'm not riled up. I just have a problem with people that show up completely unprepared yet they knew they should have been prepared (if that makes any sense).

You should absolutely go after this guy and protest him six ways from Sunday. No point in the gentleman's approach after what he's already done!

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

weedracer94
07-21-2004, 12:24 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but how can a car be illegal for competitive advantage issues in a driver school, if there are no classes in the run groups. Only safety issues should be a concern. Our D/S simply have run groups of open or closed wheel cars, and students for those groups are selected by a guess of relative experience.

------------------
ITA 94
SFR SCCA

Greg Amy
07-21-2004, 12:34 PM
Before you guys get your titties too much more in a twaddle, I believe it is common practice to include in the supplementary regulations a note that says cars that meet the minimum safety specifications are eligible to participate. Many also include words that state conformance to specific rules is not required.

Geo
07-21-2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
I think that anyone who shows up to a drivers school with a car that illegal that he/she owns should instantly fail the drivers school. One of the point of the drivers school is to demonstrate knowledge and understanding of the GCR. If your car is that illegal, you have not read the GCR and therefore you fail.

Mean? Yes, it is. Will it anger a few people? Yes, it will. But, it will definitely drive home the point and stop the questions like "how do I protest?" or some of the other common ones we hear that are clearly covered in the GCR.



OUCH!

Mean? Perhaps.

Harsh? Bloody right.

I think any car that can meet the safety specs should be allowed in a driver's school.

I think we need to be more newbie friendly. In fact, at schools I'd rather see folks who are available for newbies to establish the legality of their cars and if illegal, how to make their cars legal.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Geo
07-21-2004, 01:37 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
Part of the school process should be a real tech inspection that points out any issues that the inspectors see. This process would do several things including setting a tone for new drivers, helping them understand that there IS such thing as "legal" and "illegal."

The message would be, "our priority here is to get you licensed and legality is not really an issue - since there is NO race. But you need to (a) learn the GCR, and (B) get your car right before it starts to matter."


Kirk, I don't think I've ever agreed with you more.

This is a school. By definition we should be teaching. I think this becomes confusing. Yes, a passing grade is also required, but there is no reason homework and make-up exams (so to speak) cannot be assigned.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 01:48 PM
Ooh, more devil's advocate play!

If a car comes into the DS (we'll just abbreviate that now) and into the tech shed, it needs to have a logbook, correct? That log book identifies the class that the car is built for, correct? If it doesn't meet the rules for that class, is it not protestable?

I absolutely believe that protesting should be taught at the DS. It'll help teach everyone the process and will reinforce the procedure for all the officials.

(on edit after reading George's posts above again) I'd even volunteer to come to the DS and look over cars if people wanted to know legal/illegal. I'll probably get frustrated at the obvious stuff (like headlights on an RX-7) because that's pretty clear in the GCR, but I'd still help out!


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 21, 2004).]

Greg Amy
07-21-2004, 01:54 PM
Bill, I see where you're going, but sit back and think about your first (and second) driver's school.

Remember how behind the curve you were? Remember how you were trying to stay on top of the game and not die (or worse, look stupid?) Now think how you would have felt if some guy walked up to your car with a laundry list of things you need to change, while telling you he was gonna teach you the finer points of the SCCA vehicle protest process...

I think there are much more important things to fill in the newbies' heads. Let's play devil's advocate once they have the Black Flag All procedure down pat.

GA

planet6racing
07-21-2004, 02:04 PM
Greg:

No offense, but I do remember my DS. I also remember working for 2 years building my car, buying the GCR each year to make sure the car was legal. I remember showing up to tech knowing, absolutely, there was no way I was going to fail. The only time I truly felt overwhelmed was when my only crew person told me he had to leave at noon on the first day! I never really worried about being on top of my game, just worried about making it through safely and without having to talk to the SOM/Chief Steward.

I guess I should have been a little more clear. I don't think that people need to pick one person to protest. I do think that the school need to go over the protesting procedure and forms better, perhaps even to the extent of writing up a bogus protest, so that it may not seem so intimidating to newbies.

Alright, I promise I'll stop. I really do want new blood in the SCCA, I just want to make sure we don't go the way of some school systems and coddle the young'ens (figuratively) without introducing them to real life.


------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

ddewhurst
07-21-2004, 02:33 PM
***I was having a conversation with a tech official at our driver's school Sunday and the topic of rules came up and whether a certain car was in violation of the rules.***

Mike, will you please EDIT your first post on this subject. Eliminate the words ät our drivers school". Way to many people have their shorts all waddd up because of these words IMHJ.

FOLKS WITHIN THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD THE "POSTER" SAID NOTHING ABOUT A PROTEST. The Tech Offical may have used the word & the poster may have repeated the Tech Officals word.

Just like many other posts that go on tangents. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/rolleyes.gif

Have Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited July 21, 2004).]

ChrisCamadella
07-21-2004, 02:56 PM
Greg, I just want you to know that my titties are nowhere even close to being in a twaddle.

C'mon guys, this one has gotten a little out of hand, I think, not to mention the fact that we're all over the board with respect the original subject matter.

Send a guy home from a driver's school because he didn't understand the rules? Ummm, this is silly. How about if we just help to teach him 'the ropes' instead. A lot of stuff that you learn in school isn't necessarily in the classroom. I certainly needed to learn a lot of things at my first driver's school, and I'm willing to learn some more things now. Remember, we all do this for fun, and all of the 'officials' are volunteers.

Protest a guy for having wrong headlights?
Maybe, actually, but not until I spoke with him about it and he told me that he was right and I was wrong. And, obviously, not in the driver's school, and probably not if I beat him. You don't have to bother beating someone in the paddock if you beat them on the race track.

Was the tech guy wrong? Again, it sounds like it, but he's entitled to his opinion, and the (volunteer) tech guys get beat up all of the time anyway. Besides, you are there, busy racing in IT, expecting the tech guy to "show me in the rules..." something or another, but the tech guy has to look at ALL of the cars. That book looks awfully thick to me, and I'd be really surprised if even the big cheese honcho of tech in the sky has all of those pages committed to memory. Let's cut him a break.

Ok, I and my titties are going back to work...

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

Knestis
07-21-2004, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
Kirk: Did your drivers school incorporate a test of the GCR? ...

Yup - open-book, share answers with the guy/gal next to you, and go back and change the ones you got wrong when they read the answers to the entire group. At least two of the answers initially given during scoring were wrong and had to be looked up in a handy GCR to be corrected. All of the questions examined procedural aspects of the GCR, as I recall.

For the record, my titties are completely untwaddled but my tinkler IS in a terrific tangle...

K

K

apr67
07-21-2004, 05:42 PM
The people in tech are human, and often what they think is legal or il-legal is just as far off as a racers. Don't forget, most of us just have to know one kind of car, and we do a generally lousy job. They would have to know every class and every car in the class. Hell just ITA would make my head swim.

Having seen a lot of race cars in my days, I have seen plenty of very il-legal and unsafe cars get issued logbooks. And I have had my fair share of tech inspectors who want me to change something on my car that is either not part of our rules, or patently il-legal because they want to run their power trip.

Anyway, tech should try and help people to be legal. But often they are too busy, don't know enough and can not do that. Therefore, if you see an illegal car and it bugs you, tell the driver. Nicely. You may just find out that:
#1. It was a mistake
#2. They feel it is a gray area, so protest me
#3. You get punched in the mouth.

(#1 and #2 happen a lot, #3 about once in a blue moon).

GKR_17
07-21-2004, 06:18 PM
Here's some more fuel for the fire:

This happened at the ARRC, not a school.

One of the competitors asked a tech official where he could bolt his ballast, and was told incorrectly. This car was found noncompliant at impound, but then not penalized because of the incorrect interpretation by the tech guy. Granted the ballast was only off by about a foot, BUT don't forget that the top two ITS cars from the previous year were tossed for the exact same offense.

gsbaker
07-21-2004, 06:57 PM
Here is something for the school-vs-race perspective:

I did my first Driver's School in a rented Spec Racer Ford supplied by one of the local Customer Service Reps for SCCA Enterprises. I was one of a half-dozen students who rented from this CSR and most of them were just interested in trying racing.

One guy had a lot of experience driving/"racing" with a Ferrari club, but wanted to try some more wheel-to-wheel action. He was good, and at the end of the school he was "signed off". When the head honcho (is there a SOM at a school?) handed back his novice permit the guy said, "Thanks. By the way, what's this GCR thing I keep hearing about?"

Now if it's a race, we all gotta play by the rules and the gloves can come off.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

racer-025
07-22-2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by biovic:
Speaking about safety issues, wouldn't putting sheet metal in place of the glass lights be more safe than putting in glass? I can see that the current rules don't allow it, but I would be perfectly fine with changing the rules to not only allow but encourage this.

If any of you folks have seen pics of my IT race cars, we have metal in place of the headlights. Here in Canada, we run under Atlantic Region Motorsports, a division of ASN Canada. Our IT rules are taken from the SCCA IT GCR's, but ARMS has the right to dictate any "local rules" they deem logical. This headlight rule was one of only a few. As the cost of headlight assemblies keeps going up (especially in newer cars) it doesn't make any sense to have them in a race car (except night races of course).

That said, when we go racing south of the border, we indeed put them back in. Also, IMHO, glass in the doors of race cars makes no sense to me whats-so-ever. One minor hit in the door, and the glass is broken. It must be a weight issue...

JohnRW
07-22-2004, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by planet6racing:

If a car comes into the DS (we'll just abbreviate that now) and into the tech shed, it needs to have a logbook, correct? That log book identifies the class that the car is built for, correct? If it doesn't meet the rules for that class, is it not protestable?


Let me remind everyone that even the GCR specifically allows leeway at Driver's Schools for cars that aren't prepped to the current GCR.

Example: Showroom Stock cars that are past their 'sell-by date' may compete, as long as the their safety equipment is up to the current standard.

The GCR recognizes that Driver's Schools need a little room to wiggle, and codified it. I know that I can walk down any Reg'l or Nat'l grid and find little illegalities on 10-25% of the cars...not big stuff...but little stuff that may not be intentional or might even be open to 'interpretation'. If experienced racers can't always agree on tech & car prep issues (that's why we have a protest procedure, rather than just a single Tech guy who says "YES" or "NO") we can't hold students to a higher standard.

Send school students home if car prep isn't perfect ? What a load of sanctimonious hooey. Please occupy another universe.

planet6racing
07-22-2004, 12:18 PM
Sorry, not going to another universe. You all are stuck with me. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif Although, in another universe, I probably have another opinion or decided not to post about this. Heck, if I went there I could argue with myself! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

I'm not saying send them home if the car isn't perfect. I'm saying send them packing if they clearly haven't read the GCR, of which you can judge simply by looking at things like headlights, etc. When you remove stuff that is pretty clearly spelled out in the GCR not to remove, it's a pretty safe bet that that person has not read the GCR.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 22, 2004).]

Greg Krom
07-22-2004, 12:50 PM
>> I'm saying send them packing if they clearly haven't read the GCR, of which you can judge simply by looking at things like headlights, etc. When you remove stuff that is pretty clearly spelled out in the GCR not to remove, it's a pretty safe bet that that person has not read the GCR. <<

Or it indicates that the car is partially put back together, or is a rental, or was recently purchased "ready to race"... There are numerous legitimate reasons for a driver to show up at a school with no headlights mounted, many of which do not indicate any ignorance of the GCR by the driver.

I see absolutely no purpose in failing someone from a drivers school for an "infraction" such as headlight removal. Warn the student that that would be unacceptable at a race, note it in the logbook, thats fine. To kick them out of the school is completely harsh and doesn't serve ANY purpose.

planet6racing
07-22-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Greg Krom:

Or it indicates that the car is partially put back together, or is a rental, or was recently purchased "ready to race"... There are numerous legitimate reasons for a driver to show up at a school with no headlights mounted, many of which do not indicate any ignorance of the GCR by the driver.


Geez, I'm argumentative today! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif I'm not trying to ruffle feathers and am willing to play nice to a point to people in schools, but...

If you buy a "race ready" car without knowing the GCR, and you purchased it the day before you go to your school and haven't had time to go through the car or the GCR before the school, are you really taking this seriously? Sure, we're all out there to have fun, but there can be some very serious consequences. The GCR outlines very important procedures for on track, and these are "reinforced" in the DS. It should not be the first time the student hears/reads this.

I guess my point of all this is, RTFGCR before you get to school. If you can't make your car legal for the DS but it is safe, come on in. But, when I come up to you to talk about your missing headlights, tell me that you already know about it because you read the GCR.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

apr67
07-22-2004, 03:23 PM
Bill,

The GCR is huge, vuage, and leaves a lot of room for interpration.

If a student doesn't know the flags or rules of the road from the GCR, flunk them. Otherwise they have a life time to learn the finer points about reading the confusing GCR.

planet6racing
07-22-2004, 03:32 PM
Yep, in certain areas, the GCR is vague. I'll agree with that. Heck, without this forum, I'd still be confused about some parts (actually, I still am confused about some parts, but so are the rest of us!). http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

OK, I'll ammend my above statement. All students must take and pass the GCR test first before continuing in the school. 30 questions, 20 minutes. I'll even make it open book. If you've read the GCR at least once, you should be able to pass it. If you don't pass, you don't move on.

So, I guess what this has evolved to is my personal quest to make everyone read the GCR (as they are supposed to) before they get a license. Sure, reading the GCR and answering questions about it doesn't imply anything about the person's on track abilities and the likelihood that they will or will not make a mistake on track, but I'm not so certain we want to make the DS such an easy thing to get through.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

JohnRW
07-22-2004, 04:26 PM
More waffle-ing here than at an IHOP on Saturday morning.

Most SCCA schools that I am familiar with DO have a required GCR written test. I have 'authored' several of those tests myself in the last decade, as Chief Weenie here and there.

Reading isn't comprehension. Many elements of the GCR are open to interpretation, hence the endless debates on this (and many other...) boards. It's OK for a question to be - "When in sight of a yellow flag, is a pass made before that flag station a 'legal' pass' ?". It's not OK for a question to be - "Are Heim joints allowed in the steering linkage of a Production class car ?" The first question has an obvious answer, while we can't get Stewards and the Comp. Board to agree on an answer to the second question.

planet6racing
07-22-2004, 04:37 PM
John:

I agree. The GCR test should be about the GCR sections, not the categories. However, as has been mentioned above, some students have shown up with the "So, where do I get one of those GCR things you all keep talking about?"

(on edit) My expectation is that, if the person has read the GCR sections, he/she would have moved onto the classification section as well. I know, it's a stretch, but I'll at least cut him/her a little slack.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited July 22, 2004).]