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Greyout
02-04-2004, 04:08 PM
I really hope that either I am just having a hard time finding it in the GCR, or it is just assumed so because its a race car, or that is a simple oversight in the rules.

My car comes standard with powersteering and cruise control. I am assuming both of these items are removable for Improved Touring? (ESPECIALLY the cruise control?)

gran racing
02-04-2004, 04:25 PM
I believe power steering has to stay (unfortunately). I'm hoping someone will tell me it can go (and is in the GCR of course).

How much does cruise control weigh? I can't imagine the system would weigh much at all.

Knestis
02-04-2004, 05:32 PM
If your model (as listed in the ITCS) was offered with manual steering, you may use it. Otherwise, the PS has to be there and operable. No, not even "broken."

If you can't find an allowance to remove it, it should be expected that it has to stay - whatever "it" is.

I've frankly never worried about cruise so I've never looked...

K

Eric Parham
02-04-2004, 10:20 PM
I think cruise control can safely be deleted under the "driver controls" heading (don't have GCR handy, will add citation later).

On the power steering (PS) issue, I think this is one of the rare instances of opposite rules creep. There used to be a sentence at the beginning of the ITCS that read something like "comfort and convenience items may be removed." Power steering was certainly one of those items, but others were less obvious. For example, I guess too many people tried to remove those nasty heater cores under this guise while others considered a heater/defroster to be more of a safety issue (I know, both for and against). I don't know exactly when that language disappeared, but it certainly did. Aside from the poor guy that got DQ'd for having a manual rack that was only available with a differently classed engine, the change pretty much breezed by because most people *could* run a standard or optional manual rack. Obviously, there are a few cars (especially newer ones with ITS/ITA engines) where that engine was only available in a decked out "package" with PS. I think it's a bit silly, but COA opinions have held that PS must be retained if no examples of the spec line car came without it. That's our current rule.

JeffYoung
02-05-2004, 04:12 AM
Correct. And to illustrate the silliness of this, I believe my car (1980 TR8) is one of the few cars that ONLY came with power steering. My pump leaks like a sieve (have rebuilt it twice) so I just took the belt off since I can't afford a new one right now. Technically, this is illegal and will be corrected as soon as I get funding, but hard to see how this could affect competitiveness in any way -- although I guess freeing up the pulley does add some hp.

In any event, IT is IT. Rules may be dumb, but we have to live by them, otherwise you go race elsewhere.

joeg
02-05-2004, 08:45 AM
Jeff--That's a Lucas PS pump, isn't it?

Greg Amy
02-05-2004, 12:02 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...is one of the few cars that ONLY came with power steering.</font>

Nope, try my Nissan NX2000. Not only am I wallowing in ITS in a car down at least 75hp to my competition, it only came with power steering, draining a couple more ponies. Even worse, it has a nasty habit of getting very hot, occasionally melting pressure lines (yes, we added a cooler and braided lines...more expense in our Quixotic quest for world domination...)

It would be nice if we allowed verbiage similar to the Spec Miata rules: "Power steering racks may be converted to manual by removing all power steering components."

racer_tim
02-05-2004, 12:22 PM
Jeff, I don't think that there's any performance advantage to removing the power steering belt, so if somebody is that anal to protest you, so be it.



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

oanglade
02-05-2004, 12:52 PM
Taking off the belt and disabling the PS system makes the steering give a lot more feedback than with the PS working. That is a decent performance advantage.

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Ony

gran racing
02-05-2004, 02:16 PM
Don't most power steering units essentially "turn off" at higher speeds?

Tom Donnelly
02-05-2004, 02:44 PM
Greg,

Not that I would ever protest it, but is
a power steering pump cooler legal?

And couldn't you just "fling" a broken
belt in your engine bay before each time out?

You know, "Oh dang, look it done broke!"

The disable power steering seems like a good addition to the ITCS. How about if we start a petition on this?

Tom

Greg Amy
02-05-2004, 03:09 PM
>>> ..."turn off" at higher speeds?

Mine doesn't. It may have a high-pressure relief valve, but it never stops pumping. On top of that, no one makes larger-diameter pump pulleys for it.

>>> ...is a power steering pump cooler legal?

Dunno, don't care. Without it the car will be slinging oil on the track from blown pump and steering gear seals. This stuff gets so hot that it literally melts the vinyl anti-chafe wrap we use.

Besides, the car came with a P/S cooler from the factory; the fact that my steel-braided lines (which are expressly legal) are REALLY long is of no consequence...

Finally, "oil coolers may be added or substituted".

As I said though, dunno - don't care.

>>> "fling" a broken belt in your engine bay before each time out?

Well, that would be expressly cheating...

>>> How about if we start a petition on this?

How about we 'pull a Geo' instead? (write to the Comp Board...)

Knestis
02-05-2004, 04:00 PM
Personally, I'm of the opinion that petition drives are a waste of time and energy and do more to contribute to the feeling that one is doing something, than they do about actually motivating change.

The prescribed process requires (and therefore presumes) that one member will write and expressly request a change. It's my sense that the primary way that a group could be mobilized to influence the process would be to wait until the measure is under consideration and a request for member input is put out - and then write individual letters of support.

If there is no request for input, the idea is so far from the decision makers' minds that a thousand letters of support would just be a waste of postage (or bandwidth).

K

Eric Parham
02-05-2004, 05:14 PM
A thought/question: We're allowed to change the size of accessory pulleys, but not the crank pulley. Correct? Now, the problem has been that very often there just isn't enough space to enlarge an accessory pulley. Can anyone persuasively argue whether we are allowed to change the effective size of accessory pulleys by using a double-belt idler pulley (that is, one large pulley from a crank driven belt spinning on the same shaft as a smaller pulley to the accessory belts? Does it matter whether or not the car came with such an arrangement? What about altering a single serpentine belt arrangement to multiple v-belts?

zracer22
02-05-2004, 05:35 PM
Just change the diameter of the power steering pump pully to 0.00" and then fit the fit the appropriate belt. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Or you can do what I did and remove the power steering because no one will protest an E30 325i that finishes mid pack.

Eric Parham
02-05-2004, 05:59 PM
Interesting idea. Although reducing the diam would cause the pump to rotate even faster, I guess the belt might just slip on it as the daim approached zero. I think the interpretation has been that it has to "work", though, at least to some extent. I've heard some tech inspector's saying that the pump has to actually move fluid at an idle...

Geo
02-05-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by grega:
On top of that, no one makes larger-diameter pump pulleys for it.

Not true. Unorthodox Racing does.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Gauper
02-06-2004, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
Greg,

And couldn't you just "fling" a broken
belt in your engine bay before each time out?

You know, "Oh dang, look it done broke!"

Tom

As a corner worker at several runoffs, I can state that the good tech inspectors know about that one and won't buy it. That was a trick the Neons tried. You know, just set the belt tension a little loose and let nature take its course. We were instructed to watch for any cars loosing belts in those race groups.

JeffYoung
02-06-2004, 02:53 AM
Joe: actually it is a GM/Saginaw pump. The motor is an old Buick design, and so is the PS pump.

Ony: I did my school at Roebling with the PS working. I prefer the steering with the the power working. Feedback is fine, and the steering feels "quicker."

Greg: On the cooler, I know a couple of cars that run long, extensive brake lines to (a) add more fluid to the system and (B) cool it. I would assume the same thing would be true for a PS fluid cooler -- the lines are free, so why not a cooler?

Knestis
02-06-2004, 09:10 AM
Under the current rules? Because a "line" and a "cooler" are different things, the primary evidence of which is the fact that there we use two different words to describe them. I guess it has been about a year since we played this word game... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Now, if we're talking about the logic behind the rules, the original allowance for alternate lines was so "dangerous" rubber lines could be replaced with "safe" braided ones.

K

Greg Amy
02-06-2004, 11:31 AM
George, you're mistaken about Unorthodox.

Unless they've changed their offerings recently, all they have for the SR20DE is a "system" revolving around a reduced-diameter crankshaft pulley. I bought the whole shebang looking for oversize pulleys for the water pump, alternator, and power steering pump, but I found that while the crank pulley was, in fact, undersized the other pulleys were stock size (but available in nice birght shiny anodized aluminum). Since we cannot change the diameter of the crankshaft pulley, I ended up returning it to them.

You buy a "lightened" aluminum P/S pulley from them, but according to the technician I spoke to they were stock sized pulleys.

They offered to fabricate pulleys to my specifications, but the price was way high and they required a minimum quantity purchase. This is why we use the Stanza water pump pulley.

If Nissport wants to fab and sell them, I'll design them...

Tom Donnelly
02-06-2004, 02:18 PM
Greg,

There is a guy down here in the southeast who makes billet aluminum pulleys for a reasonable price. I have one on my z-car. He made the pulleys for Eddie Radatz who maintains Grayson Upchurch's cars. If you want a contact email me at [email protected].

This guy does great work, I have pics.

Tom

JeffYoung
02-06-2004, 04:01 PM
While I am not sure I agree with this statement, I would like your opinion Kirk:

What is the difference between a line that cools and a cooler? Functionally, the same thing, right?

Knestis
02-06-2004, 06:15 PM
If that premise moves forward from the assumption that they are the "same" in that they share some diagnostic characteristics or attributes - both flow oil and both dissipate heat energy - the point might hold. The proposition is that they are the "same" until someone provides a compelling case that they both don't have those two attributes.

That is not a tenable argument however, if the question advances from the assumption that they are "different until proven the same." The burden is then to prove that a "cooler" is a "line" in that they both have ALL of the critical attributes that define either one individually.

I suggest that they are operationally different as the terms "line" and "cooler" are commonly used in the auto industry.

Try this - go into 100 auto parts places and ask to see every PS "line" that they have in stock or on the books. My guess is that none of them will have the attributes NOT shared by "lines" and "coolers" but that instead are unique to "coolers" - all-metal construction, fins to increase surface area, and bends to maximize linear flow relative to the space they take up - all attributes intended to maximize cooling capacity.

I'm not picking on Jeff here, either: We racers do this kind of thing all the time, knowing full well that we are playing word games to our own ends. Some of the goofy stuff we have in the current IT rules are a result of this process...

K

Geo
02-06-2004, 08:31 PM
Originally posted by grega:
George, you're mistaken about Unorthodox.

Unless they've changed their offerings recently, all they have for the SR20DE is a "system" revolving around a reduced-diameter crankshaft pulley. I bought the whole shebang looking for oversize pulleys for the water pump, alternator, and power steering pump, but I found that while the crank pulley was, in fact, undersized the other pulleys were stock size (but available in nice birght shiny anodized aluminum). Since we cannot change the diameter of the crankshaft pulley, I ended up returning it to them.

You buy a "lightened" aluminum P/S pulley from them, but according to the technician I spoke to they were stock sized pulleys.

They offered to fabricate pulleys to my specifications, but the price was way high and they required a minimum quantity purchase. This is why we use the Stanza water pump pulley.

If Nissport wants to fab and sell them, I'll design them...

I know that the UR WP pulleys I have are oversized, despite whatever you may think. I've compared them with the half dozen stock ones I have.

I admit I don't have a UR PS pulley in my mitts. I'll defer to you, but I was pretty certain someone told me they were indeed larger.

As for NISsport making them, we could perhaps do that. Let's talk.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Mark LaBarre
02-23-2004, 05:25 PM
The Crank pulley diameter has to stay as stock, but does the belt have to ride on the periphery of the pulley?
If the belt were to be further down inside the pulley, it's effective ratio would be reduced, slowing the accessories.

Food for thought.

lateapex911
02-23-2004, 10:41 PM
Yes, but how would the belt get down there without modification?? IIDSYCYC

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Quickshoe
02-24-2004, 12:16 AM
Good job smokey!

Run a thinner v-belt, or a crankshaft pulley that is the same DIAMETER and material of the pulley but has a wider groove for the belt to ride in.

The rulebook doesn't specify how far below the outermost diameter of the pulley the belt must ride...or better yet just get a rotary and then you can run any "crankshaft" pulley you wish.

Thinking out loud....Am I missing something in the book, where does it say you can change belt sizes?

GT240sx
06-14-2004, 03:10 PM
I have been searching for a good answer to the cruise control question and I have not been able to find anything in the GCR/ITCS about being able to remove the system. I do remember reading something about being able to remove it relating to driver controls but still can't find anything. I hope that I am just missing it, but just for safety reasons, I don't want anything else attached to the throttle than the pedal that I am in control of. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Russell

dickita15
06-14-2004, 05:00 PM
Itcs 17.1.4.d.1.a.2
external throttle linkage may be modified....
dick

SilverHorseRacing
06-14-2004, 09:51 PM
Actually, on many Ford products, the P/S cooler is just a long line that runs in front of the radiator, so the "fin/no fin" argument, or snaking back and forth real close together arguments don't hold much water.

As to the cruise control, I am hard pressed to imagine that a car (maybe short of the bimmer) comes "standard" with cruise control. IIRC, it is a convenience option on most cars in IT, meaning that the car was available without the cruise. Simple solution is to then update/backdate on the spec line to a car without the cruise. Maybe that has changed with some of the very new cars being allowed in, but most cars of the 80's and mid-90's I'd say it's a pretty safe assumption.

If however, your car was not available w/o cruise, well, too bad! Mine wasn't available with horsepower! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com (http://www.SilverHorseRacing.com)

GT240sx
06-14-2004, 11:51 PM
The only evidence I have been able to find about if the car came with cruise control standard or as an option is on an enthusiast website with pictures of window stickers. One of them doesn't list cruise control as a standard option. Would you guys consider that enough evidence for the update/backdate rule as long it's within the year range listed on a single line of the ITCS car classification.
Russell

whenry
06-15-2004, 11:44 AM
'91-96 Ford Escort GT had both the cruise and the PS as standard equipment. I think that many of the marginal ITS cars(that really should be in ITA) will have similar packages. If it were a Hword issue, do you think that the rules would have been changed by now? Just another example of how the IT rules have not kept up with the technology of the cars now made and sold in US.

oanglade
06-15-2004, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by grega:
It would be nice if we allowed verbiage similar to the Spec Miata rules: "Power steering racks may be converted to manual by removing all power steering components."


Since there seems to be some kind of a trend about making sense out of the IT rules, maybe this would be a good time for a letter about this.


------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

Greg Amy
06-15-2004, 12:27 PM
I've sent to many letters to the Comp Board over the last few years that I'm going dizzy, but I do believe I sent an email about 6-8 weeks ago saying just that. If our residing ITAC members could confirm/deny I'll be glad to send another one.

Greg

SilverHorseRacing
06-15-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by GT240sx:
The only evidence I have been able to find about if the car came with cruise control standard or as an option is on an enthusiast website with pictures of window stickers. One of them doesn't list cruise control as a standard option. Would you guys consider that enough evidence for the update/backdate rule as long it's within the year range listed on a single line of the ITCS car classification.
Russell

I don't know about the car in question, but most factory shop manuals I've ever seen will have multiple breakdown / assembly sections based on different option packages. Again, YMMV... As to the window sticker, I don't think that is of the accepted sources of information for a protest defense, so I'd go dig deeper than that, if I was even worried about it.

------------------
-Marcello Canitano
www.SilverHorseRacing.com (http://www.SilverHorseRacing.com)

ChrisCamadella
07-19-2004, 09:55 AM
GregA - I posted you privately on this one. If you don't get it, give me a holler.

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S

ChrisCamadella
07-19-2004, 09:59 AM
Hi,

Just as a side note on this one, the discussion regarding making the belt fall off is not a valid one under any circumstances.

The rules require that you FINISH the race with the car meeting all of the rules. Technically speaking, if the belt isn't there, for any reason, at the end of the race, you're in violation of the rules. It really doesn't matter if you made it fall off or not. The same thing applies to bodywork, mufflers, and all of those other parts that seem to just fall off of cars during the course of the race. You're supposed to show up at impound with all of the parts attached.

They don't weigh your car in at the beginning of the race, do they?

Cheers,

Chris Camadella
ITS Porsche 944S