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Greg Amy
04-19-2004, 04:58 PM
We had an interesting situation this past weekend at our first Regional event of the year.

Group 1 was a very large field consisting of 34 ITS and ITB cars. We took the start fine but during the first lap there was a serious contretemps between some cars, putting one in the wall and one on its lid. We immediately went under full course yellow with a pace car.

Four lap later the track was clear and we were lined up, ready to go. As we approached the flag station on the front straight we were NOT given a green flag by the starter, but we were also not given a vigorous "NO" head shake. However, apparently Race Control told all corner stations to drop their double-yellow flags. The lead half of the pack began waving their hands for a no-start while the back half of the pack saw the double-yellows drop and started racing. The top half of the field was then greeted by a bunch of corner workers waving their arms in circles as in "go, go, go!"

Within 3 corners the "Black Flag All" was out and the field was brought into the pits. We were sorted out by order of prior pace lap, led out to a single-file start behind the pace car, and the subsequent start and the rest of the race completed without issue (but certainly not without on-track incidents).

Now that we've all kinda chatted about it on the Northeast forum (http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum4/HTML/000690.html) we're all wondering did any of us, as drivers, do anything wrong? Should we have done anything differently? This track (New Hampshire) has a W-I-D-E straight along with the first two major corners (it's the NASCAR oval) but what if this had happened at, say, Hallet where there wasn't this kind of room?

I think we all agree there was a miscommunication between Start and Race Control, but I'd like to hash it out to see if we as drivers should have reacted differently. For reference, review your GCR 7.5, 7.6, 7.7 (pages 69-72).

Greg

dominojd
04-19-2004, 06:12 PM
IMO the front cars did the right thing. The way I feel is NO GREEN NO GO. The starter should have shook his head the flag stations should have posted double yellows but they didn't. I actually think the cars in the back should have backed out also. If you watch dougs video of the original start the starter waved the green flag for the whole field to see not just the first few cars. It would be the same thing on the restart.
Also look at the definition of green flag
9.4.2.A pg82. "A race is under way the instant the greenflag is displayed". Like I said before NO GREEN NO GO.
IMO

------------------
Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

planet6racing
04-19-2004, 06:34 PM
Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.

If there was no start, a yellow should have been waving as they came to the S/F flag station. I agree they should wave the green for the whole field, but the guys back in the pack aren't going to wait until they can see it.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

dominojd
04-19-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.

If there was no start, a yellow should have been waving as they came to the S/F flag station. I agree they should wave the green for the whole field, but the guys back in the pack aren't going to wait until they can see it.


In the same respect when you get to S/F and see no green do you still go ?



------------------
Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 06:59 PM
I think you have to ask the question what does a flag station without any flags mean??? I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.

The only exception to this would be a "waive off" from the starters stand, it might take a second or so for the first turn to put up the yellow flags and then the field should regroup and not be badly messed up.

I don't think that any of the drivers did anything wrong as we were all confused and when I was about half way through the field I wondered if this was going to work, but didn't expect it.

As someone who has started near the back I can say that I have depended on flag stations to drop thier flags. In this race Jason and I got put basically back to the back of the pack after regridding the mess up (based on previose lap position) and when the flags were droped at the last station (last restart) I once again passed him and others long before I could see the green at start/finish.

Raymond

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 07:02 PM
Joe-
You might not go at S/F, but when you see no flags at turn 1 that is when you realize the track is green, and you should go!!!

Raymond

ddewhurst
04-19-2004, 07:30 PM
***Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.***

Bill, I tell ya what I'm going to do at our first drivers meeting at the Farm this year. I'm going to read from your post from this thread & we'll see what the chief has to say to you.

***I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.***

Raymond, I would do the same with your post from this thread if we raced at the same track. Find the rule that supports your version of a station with no flag before you see the green flag at the anticipated start of a race.

Have SAFE Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

88YB1
04-19-2004, 07:35 PM
I am just a newby and know very little, but in the race discribed above the starter and/or race control messed up. GCR page 179 section 21.5.5 covers a full course yellow to green restart. "On the lap prior to a possible yellow to green restart, the field will be notified of a possible restart on the next lap by: 1: Safety car turning lights on and off, and exiting the track. 2: If no safety car is used, Starter indicating one more lap.
In either case the lead car gradually brings the field up to speed for a possible restart. 3: At the instant the starter waves the green flag all yellow lights go green (yellow flags drop)Racing resumes immediately over the entire track." Items in brackets mine for clarification.

Chuck
ITA #34 SEDiv.


[This message has been edited by 88YB1 (edited April 19, 2004).]

Peter Olivola
04-19-2004, 08:01 PM
Regardless of the flag condition anywhere else, if you pull out of line or improve your position in any way before the green is shown by the starter you have violated the GCR.


Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***Alright, well, climbing the hill at RA or making the turn at Blackhawk. You can't see the s/f flag station. You don't have a radio. You see the last flag station drop the double yellow, indicating a hot race track. You go. You cannot wait to see the flag because everyone else will be gone.***

Bill, I tell ya what I'm going to do at our first drivers meeting at the Farm this year. I'm going to read from your post from this thread & we'll see what the chief has to say to you.

***I have always been taught that a flag station without flags means a green track.***

Raymond, I would do the same with your post from this thread if we raced at the same track. Find the rule that supports your version of a station with no flag before you see the green flag at the anticipated start of a race.

Have SAFE Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Geo
04-19-2004, 08:19 PM
I'd have to agree that anyone who passes before the green flag is displayed has contraviened the GCR and subject to sanction.

I also agree that sometimes those starting in the back cannot see the starter's stand and in practice usually use some other clue to begin accelerating.

However, the second part does not trump the first part. Therefore, as tough a pill as it is to swallow, in this specific case anyone who passed even though the green was not displayed are subject to sanction and should be grateful they were not brought before the SOM.

And while cornerstations don't display flags when then track is green, lack of flags does not mean the track is green. For this to happen the green flag must be displayed at the starter's stand.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

SpeedyDave
04-19-2004, 08:41 PM
wow some of you guys must never race at the back of the field at tracks like Summit Point. Often the cars are still not into turn 10 when the green drops (around a corner, up a hill) and rely exclusively on the flag station at turn 10 dropping yellow as an indicator. If you're good you might pass 6 or 8 cars before hitting the s/f line.

See GCR pg 71 item 9 "All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps." Ie, no flags = go.

There was obviously a miscommunication and it sounds like everything was sorted out in the end... From the sounds of things the drivers acted correctly.

dominojd
04-19-2004, 08:47 PM
I don't think anyone is talking about the tricks strating from the back. I drive an ITS Nissan Sentra. Where do I ususally start? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif You go when everyone else goes in the back but,you still have to take the green flag. It is the fact that no grenn flag was displayed for anyone anywhere.

Yes I will agree some officials had some miscommunication on this deal.

Maybe someone from NER will chime in with what happened.

Geo
04-19-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
wow some of you guys must never race at the back of the field at tracks like Summit Point. Often the cars are still not into turn 10 when the green drops (around a corner, up a hill) and rely exclusively on the flag station at turn 10 dropping yellow as an indicator. If you're good you might pass 6 or 8 cars before hitting the s/f line.


I know what does happen. But per the rules, if you are caught out in a situation like this you are guilty. Those are the chances you take.


Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
See GCR pg 71 item 9 "All flag stations shall display double yellow flags during all pace laps." Ie, no flags = go.


Those are your words, not those written in the GCR. If no flags truly = go, then that is what would be written in the GCR. The control of the start of the race still lay with the starter's stand.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Amy
04-19-2004, 10:26 PM
Just for the record:

I did exactly as Andy did up front, and would have done exactly as Raymond, Stephen, Jason, et al did in the back. And I've done this for a long time...

GA

Geo
04-19-2004, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by grega:
Just for the record:

I did exactly as Andy did up front, and would have done exactly as Raymond, Stephen, Jason, et al did in the back. And I've done this for a long time...

GA

For the record, I would do the same thing. But, that doesn't change the rules. That is my point. "All the kids are doing it" is not a valid excuse. Doesn't necessarily keep us from doing it.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Trish
04-19-2004, 11:21 PM
I was watching this restart from turn 3 and the yellows were dropped in 2 and 3 by the time the back of the pack got to the exit of the oval turn. At this point, the front of the pack is at a speed indicative of the corner, but not changing position. The corners workers were vigorously waving them to get racing. And yes, the back of the pack moved up as they were still in a fast section. It was a major communication snafu and in this case, IMHO, the drivers did nothing wrong. For a matter of fact the corner workers were saying while the drivers were being regridded that the starter had been deserted on race day by his experienced starting mentor and was a newbie. Thankfully, another mishap did not happen. Those ITS and ITB driver's were quite impressive.

RKramden
04-19-2004, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by Trish:
For a matter of fact the corner workers were saying while the drivers were being regridded that the starter had been deserted on race day by his experienced starting mentor and was a newbie.

Well, Trish, thanks for doing your best to spread lies and libel.

That's not what happened. The person who was the chief starter was asked if she wanted help from another starter and she said NO. She was asked three times. She said no all three times. She clearly was not "deserted", as you seem to state.

The person who has been her mentor was not even at the track during the weekend. I'm told he was at Lime Rock.



[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited April 20, 2004).]

joeg
04-20-2004, 08:16 AM
Guys & Gals--Just be glad no one got damaged in that restart.

No one is perfect; not even race officials...

planet6racing
04-20-2004, 09:43 AM
Peter, David, et al.

I'm just trying to point out what the rear of the pack was thinking. I agree with the no green, no go. The exception is that the green isn't constantly displayed at S/F throughout the race and, since it was a restart, it is possible to get confused.

David, feel free to read that at the farm. I'll be listening to the comm system for "Green Green Green..." I'm sure there are a lot of people who qualify at the back that would agree with what I said (not that it is correct).

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

bldn10
04-20-2004, 11:32 AM
"GCR page 179 section 21.5.5 covers a full course yellow to green restart."

This section applies only to "events conducted entirely on paved oval tracks." Since, as I understand, NHIS races are not run entirely on the oval, this section is innapplicable to this incident. I don't find anything in the GCR that is directly on point.

I don't fault any of the drivers front or back. However, I wonder what was said on the Race Control network. I would think that the decision to go green is in the discretion of the Starter, and Race Control does not advise the corner stations "GREEN! GREEN!" until they see the green waved by the Starter. I have worked corners and, if I am showing a double yellow, I'm not dropping it until told to do so by Control. So, possibly, here the error might have been not the Starter (except in not waving their head for a no-start) but in Control by signalling the corners to drop their yellows even though the Starter never waved the green.

whenry
04-20-2004, 12:06 PM
Famous line from movies(I cant do the accent in type): what we have here is failure to communicate. I am a Steward and have worked control on many instances. It is my favorite part of the job. I also dont like to point fingers and want to be productive here.
The drivers did nothing wrong and it appears that Control thought that the green was displayed so that the call to all corners to drop flags was relayed(there are many tracks where due to angles, etc, Control cannot see all the actions of the starter). Since black flags were eventually displayed, I must also assume that something BIG was going on that justified stopping the race. Or maybe Control just wanted to correct the error. Two wrongs dont make a right, IMO.
I'm sure that this one will make the stewards seminar.

Knestis
04-20-2004, 01:22 PM
This is an interesting conversation in the abstract because it points out some of the things we do, that we don't necessarily KNOW we do. It also underlines the importance of consistency and predictability in a setting where we don't have the luxury - any of us - of making a well-considered, reflective decision.

I made a very wrong move at the Roebling driver school - and 'fessed up to the stewards without being asked, I might add - when I passed the pace car that was sent out mid-practice. The starter had a waving white out (no yellow) and pace was going slowly, driver's right, at the edge of the track just beyond S/F - lights on.

It should be simple enough that "you don't pass pace when it's lit up" but the combination of the flag (not correct), its low speed, and the contrived nature of schools left me thinking about it and uncertain just long enough to drive past it.

There is value in doing a post mortem on this kind of thing but it isn't to apportion blame.

K

RSTPerformance
04-20-2004, 05:10 PM
Like I said in the Northeast post, one thing that everyone needs to take away from this incident is how important we depend on our VOLUNTEER corner workers. Like everything else our faults usually show more than our positives, but I would like everyone to take a minute to realize how important they are to providing us a safe place to race.

Thank you;

Raymond

bhudson
04-20-2004, 05:15 PM
K - you shouldn't have 'fessed up. You didn't do anything wrong.

There is no provision in the GCR for a "waving" white flag, only a steady white flag. The white flag is to signal a slow moving car or emergency vehicle. You are allowed to pass slow moving cars and emergency vehicles.

The white flag is not the correct flag for the pace car. If the pace car was being dispatched, the flags displayed should have been double yellow.

But look on the bright side. It's not the first time that a Roebling Road Driver School has displayed flags in a manner that is contrary to the GCR or established procedure.

Unfortunately, it probably won't be the last.

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region
Asst Flag Chief

CaptainWho
04-20-2004, 05:47 PM
I'm not sure which run group Kirk was in, but we were in group 3. At one point, the black flag station was displaying a double yellow with the "ALL" placard. That confused me for a second. :-)

SpeedyDave
04-20-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
Those are your words, not those written in the GCR. If no flags truly = go, then that is what would be written in the GCR. The control of the start of the race still lay with the starter's stand.




George,
I dunno about other areas but when I took driver's school at two seperate regions a couple years ago, in BOTH cases there was a question on the test on flags asking "what does it mean if a station is not displaying any flags." the "correct" answer was "the course is green in that location".

Do we really need to spell out in the GCR what "no flag" means? Come on, we may be like children but there's a point...we define explicitly in the GCR what flags do mean and how they are to be displayed, and by doing so we also define what NO flag means. We even have an exception - where no flag is displayed at the starter station and the race is -not- started the starter will shake his/her head to indicate no start.

-David

ITSRX7
04-20-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
George,
I dunno about other areas but when I took driver's school at two seperate regions a couple years ago, in BOTH cases there was a question on the test on flags asking "what does it mean if a station is not displaying any flags." the "correct" answer was "the course is green in that location".

Do we really need to spell out in the GCR what "no flag" means? Come on, we may be like children but there's a point...we define explicitly in the GCR what flags do mean and how they are to be displayed, and by doing so we also define what NO flag means. We even have an exception - where no flag is displayed at the starter station and the race is -not- started the starter will shake his/her head to indicate no start.

-David



And this is why we are discussing this. I think we can all agree that if there is no flag the course is green in that area - ONLY AFTER the green flag has been thrown to start the race.

What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

gsbaker
04-20-2004, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

Good point. For safety's sake, there should always be a flag. No flag equates to, "How the hell do we know?"

It's not that difficult to put out a green.

Gregg

RKramden
04-20-2004, 08:30 PM
Pythagorean theorem : 24 Words
The Lord's Prayer : 66 Words
Archimedes' Principle : 67 Words
The 10 Commandments : 179 Words
The Gettysburg Address : 286 Words
The Declaration of Independence : 1,300 Words
The U. S. Government regulations on the sale of cabbage : 26,911 Words
The GCR on what to do under the various conditions of displaying flags or no flags: 72,572 Words

:=)

gran racing
04-20-2004, 08:47 PM
Are there circumstances when during a double yellow the race would be resumed at a flag station other than the S/F line? (Thinking about some of the longer tracks)

I'm still unclear about the no green flag debate. I can justify both ways of thinking...

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

gran racing
04-20-2004, 08:52 PM
I know I'm going a bit off topic, but it does relate directly to starts / restarts and my GCR is on lend...

In an instance where you are beside someone who qualified one place before you; they start to fall back (not mechanical issue, just???), are you supposed to keep up with the person in front of you? Or are you really supposed to stay next to the person that out qualified you? I am pretty sure it is the first response.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

RSTPerformance
04-20-2004, 09:05 PM
Dave-

good question... I have always stayed up with the person infront of me, hoping the other person would not stay up and leave me a hole as hopefully the person infront of them is faster than the person infront of me... Either way it leaves me (the car staying up) with more options.

Raymond

Geo
04-20-2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
And this is why we are discussing this. I think we can all agree that if there is no flag the course is green in that area - ONLY AFTER the green flag has been thrown to start the race.

Thank you Andy. Exactly my point.


Originally posted by ITSRX7:
What we had was a drop of the double yellows for the back of the pack, no green flag and no waive-off.

How's that for a situation?

That'll sure make for some stress.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

JLawton
04-21-2004, 09:33 AM
I'm going to repeat myself from the NER section. I agree with Raymond on this. Overall, I think the workers did a great job fixing the error. Everyone makes mistakes. In fact, some drivers make many during a race!! Let's not continue to bash a volunteer. Sh** happens............

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

Trish
04-21-2004, 12:49 PM
My apologies to everyone. I was not trying to spread libel or lies. I was frustrated at the workers in turn 3 and only passed on what they were saying. They were very negative about the worker situation in general and seemed to convey to all the spectators that there was disharmony. BTW, I think the workers in turn 10 were so quick to respond, most impressive. It just seems that the most important part of the "team" that allows you to race has to start working together and communicating with one another more. Like Jeff said, thank goodness no more serious incidents happened in that race. BTW, I think the carmoraridy (sp) you all have here is wonderful and true to the spirit of the IT groups. It's wonderful to see you all so supportive of each other.
Again, my sincere apologies.

RKramden
04-21-2004, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by gran racing:
Are there circumstances when during a double yellow the race would be resumed at a flag station other than the S/F line? (Thinking about some of the longer tracks)

I'm still unclear about the no green flag debate. I can justify both ways of thinking...


Practice and Qualifying, yes.

Race, no.

RSTPerformance
04-21-2004, 08:27 PM
You ass u me Yellow, just don't get mad when I pass you http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Raymond

dpc
04-21-2004, 08:42 PM
That poor green flag(or lack of) is starting to look like a dead horse. let it go. dave

gran racing
04-21-2004, 09:07 PM
O.k., I agree that the specific NHIS instance should be let go. BUT I too want to learn what should be done in a similar circumstance. I know that this is not the first time nor the last time that a similar situation will happen. Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

gran racing
04-21-2004, 09:20 PM
O.k., I agree that the specific NHIS instance should be let go. BUT I too want to learn what should be done in a similar circumstance. I know that this is not the first time nor the last time that a similar situation will happen. Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

Maddog
04-22-2004, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by gran racing:
Forget blame - but what should the pack do next time no green flag is shown, no waive off, no yellow at flag one. At this point, I'd say screw it and just go.



According to my Steward friends, if there is no green flag you just keep on chuggin' at reduced speed.

It makes no difference on a restart if the yellows are down or not, there is NO race until the green flag flies at start. If you don't see green you don't race.

The lead cars figured it out and raised a hand to indicate to those behind that there was no start. This should have passed all the way back through the field, but somebody mid pack had their head up their butt and just started racing which screwed up the whole deal.

dickita15
04-22-2004, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by Maddog:
According to my Steward friends, if there is no green flag you just keep on chuggin' at reduced speed.


that is like asking your lawyer if a course of action is prudent, they will give you the safe answer. The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows. you can not pass the pace car, the pace car was in.
dick

RSTPerformance
04-22-2004, 09:17 AM
“The lead cars figured it out and raised a hand to indicate to those behind that there was no start. This should have passed all the way back through the field, but somebody mid pack had their head up their butt and just started racing which screwed up the whole deal.“

ERRRR (that is a buzzer sound) wrong comment... I have not tried but I don't think I would like any heads up my ___ and I was in the back of the pack, not the middle of the pack. If I saw hands up I would have probably reacted differently. I started the drive forward and others followed my pursuit. I also can't blame anyone for running forward if a head were to end up in their ___ .

I know you all want to drop who is to blame, but that was a finger pointed at my back, that I had to comment to... sorry http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Stupid comments deserve stupid responses.

Raymond


[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited April 22, 2004).]

Maddog
04-22-2004, 10:53 AM
Originally posted by dickita15:
...The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows.


That's right, and the rules governing driver actions say you can not begin racing until the green is waved. As the green had not been waved you can not begin racing.

Maddog
04-22-2004, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:


.....If I saw hands up I would have probably reacted differently.

When everyone around you went racing you went along, that's natural.

It was the jackass who went racing even though the car in front of him was holding up a hand who screwed things up.

Geo
04-22-2004, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by dickita15:
that is like asking your lawyer if a course of action is prudent, they will give you the safe answer. The answer lies in what rules are govererning the drivers action in this situation. you can not pass under yellow, there were no yellows. you can not pass the pace car, the pace car was in.
dick



Wrong. The field was under starter's orders and until the green flag is displayed, no passing is allowed. It's critical to understand the field was under starter's orders.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

SpeedyDave
04-22-2004, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Maddog:
When everyone around you went racing you went along, that's natural.

It was the jackass who went racing even though the car in front of him was holding up a hand who screwed things up.

This is interesting, worth discussing I think - I've been in situations where at the start a car (or two or three) "dies" just as the field takes off (and I've been mid/rear pack - unable to see any flag stations). Of course those guys often put up an arm to indicate they're going slow, and everyone quickly tries to get around them without hitting them.
I'm wondering - let's say I'm in the middle pack, I can't see the S/F line (often the case at least at the tracks I've run) I hear motors rev, I start on the gas too and the guy in front of me raises his hand. I have exactly 1/4 millisecond to decide either off the gas and have the guy behind me hit me, or zip aroung the guy with his hand up. Of course if I zip around I may be guilty of a false start - or I may just preserve my position instead of falling to the back behind someone having mechanical problems. Tough judgement call IMO and of course once the decision either way is made - there's no going back.

Interesting thoughts coming out of this discussion, definitely worthwhile!

RSTPerformance
04-22-2004, 11:37 AM
Maddog:

I am not overly impressed with your insults… I WAS the jackass that went racing when the cars in front of me did not go, please re-read posts and realize I was at the back, and their were no hands up by the drivers within my sight (I was in about 31-32 position). Please read over posts carefully before calling me a jackass, otherwise I think you are only making yourself out to look like a jackass. Maybe you don't realize I WAS the one who started racing first, but that just means you really need to re-look at the posts before throwing out insults.

To All:

No one did anything wrong, both sides in this situation were correct. If it happens again anywhere I think that the leaders (the front of the pack), have control of the situation.

A) They can stay at a slow pace and
1) Their will probably be a black flag all if the back of the pack chooses not to follow suit,
2) Or the rest of the field will follow at a reasonable pace and hopefully everyone will get the green the next time buy.
B) The leaders can go as if it was a green and I am sure the race would simply just go on with everyone racing happily ever after.

I strongly suggest that if the leaders do not go than they all pay attention in their mirrors and their surroundings, as they always should be especially in a potentially dangerous situation. To my knowledge no one was looking in his or her mirrors during this situation.

No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO). It is not illegal to pass before the start finish when the track goes green. I have seen many instances where real jackasses don’t stay up with the field and fall almost a half lap behind. I am not waiting for that true jackass to get to S/F to see if the green was/has been displayed.

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

Raymond "proud to be a jackass this time" Blethen

My Jackass comments and reactions should not reflect on the others involved with RST Performance Racing. I know that at least one person on the team does have another view.

Peter Olivola
04-22-2004, 01:12 PM
Are you sure you're not a stalking horse for the campaign to get SCCA Club Racing to adopt the North American Unified Flagging Rules? This situation would be much more easily handled by the provision that requires all flag stations to display the green flag for the first lap after a start/restart.


Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO). It is not illegal to pass before the start finish when the track goes green. I have seen many instances where real jackasses don’t stay up with the field and fall almost a half lap behind. I am not waiting for that true jackass to get to S/F to see if the green was/has been displayed.

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

Geo
04-22-2004, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No one did anything wrong, both sides in this situation were correct.

Both of those statements are incorrect. There is a lot that was wrong on all sides. Raymond, I don't have a pitchfork and torch out. But we're back to two wrongs don't make a right.

And I'm not trying to be self-righteous either. I think it's possible for anyone in the same situation to get caught out by something like this. More likely than not, I would myself.


Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
B) The leaders can go as if it was a green and I am sure the race would simply just go on with everyone racing happily ever after.

Oh God no. That had better not happen. I would be on the radio and have a protest lodged before the bloody race was even over. The racers don't decide when the race starts, the starter does. This is flat out wrong and totally dangerous.


Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO).

It may be your opinion, but it doesn't change what it written in the rule book.


Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

You're right. Something needs to change if only some communication.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

ITSRX7
04-22-2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

No Yellows in a station means the track is green despite starters orders (IMO).

<stuff deleted>

You cannot change the mentality that no yellows means green track, until SCCA makes a clarified rule about it and stops instructing that no yellows is a green track in driver’s schools.

Raymond "proud to be a jackass this time" Blethen


I am going to disagree strongly with your first statement. The track CAN NOT go green until the starter says so. - period. You can assume all you want, but it just isn't green until the starter says. If it was, I would just have run from 12 after Dick drove the pace car off...how fair is that?

And you can change that mentality by providing details in the supps. All Regions should do this due to the specifics of each track. As for NHIS, it COULD be written that when the double yellows go down in 12, the track is green - and that requires perfect communication between the stater stand and corners.

You ain't no jacka$$ in this situation. The drivers all did what they had to do (from the front and back - I was the lead car and at least the top 5 put up there arms), there was some confusion and then the officials did what they needed to do to correct the situation.

I think the solution to this issue is to publish the restart proceedure and expectations in the supps so nobody has to guess.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

RSTPerformance
04-22-2004, 02:12 PM
Andy-

I suport the addition to the supps.

Raymond

Peter Olivola
04-22-2004, 02:29 PM
Then why don't we just publish the entire front half of the GCR in the supps for every race? Why should we have to publish anything in the supps that is already covered in the GCR?

SpeedyDave
04-22-2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I am going to disagree strongly with your first statement. The track CAN NOT go green until the starter says so. - period. You can assume all you want, but it just isn't green until the starter says. If it was, I would just have run from 12 after Dick drove the pace car off...how fair is that?


You would be in violation of the "rolling" starts section if you took off after the pace car pulls in - and many people have done exactly that - some have been penalized and some have not.

Again, they teach in the drivers schools that no flag = green track, and it's currently on the flag test in several regions in exactly that way.

I understand where you're coming from, if the race hasn't "started" then it can't be green. BUT, there's a reason doing corner checks before the race calls "station x double yellow" and NOT "station x green" or "station x no flag", because whenever a race car is on track the corner must be covered by a flag, otherwise the track is considered green even if the race hasn't officially "started".

ITSRX7
04-22-2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by SpeedyDave:
You would be in violation of the "rolling" starts section if you took off after the pace car pulls in - and many people have done exactly that - some have been penalized and some have not.

Again, they teach in the drivers schools that no flag = green track, and it's currently on the flag test in several regions in exactly that way.


Now you have confused me. We are talking about a restart situation here that is paced by the official car. Lights off, turns off the track, head out of a blind (to the starter stand) corner...

It would seem in your first paragraph that you are telling me that I CAN'T go until I see the flag for penalty of the rolling start rule but in the second you are telling me that no flag = a green track.

So how does this effect the leaders? Double yellows are up at last turn as you pass, you are looking for the green and it never comes - with no waive off. Are you submitting I then look to the first corner to decided if the track is green while the back of the pack is already at full tilt?

AB

dickita15
04-22-2004, 04:48 PM
geo
where does it say in the gcr that you must see a green flag on a restart in order to resume racing.
mistakes were made by the officials sure. stuff happens but i do not belive that any of the drivers given the information they had available violated any rules.

dick patullo

dickita15
04-22-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Maddog:
That's right, and the rules governing driver actions say you can not begin racing until the green is waved. As the green had not been waved you can not begin racing.

again where does it say this.

ITSRX7
04-22-2004, 05:02 PM
Dick,

You are right...it doesn't appear that it says at all the 'signal' to resume racing on a single file restart.

Does it? What are we to do if we see no green? Maybe I should have just jumped out of 12 when you left the track? Help me understand the right thing to do.

AB

oanglade
04-22-2004, 05:03 PM
9.2 Safety Car
9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."


While people can interpret "No Flag" as meaning "GO", until the green flag is displayed, the race has not been restarted and improving your position or "begin racing" would be a violation of 9.2.1 of the GCR.
That's how I see it, but I wonder what I would have done myself if I see everyone around me taking off... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

RSTPerformance
04-22-2004, 05:47 PM
Peter Olivola-

I think the point of this discussion is that this is not covered in the GCR. It is an (a Gray) area where many people have very different and valid views. This SHOULD be in the supps IMO because it can create a dangerouse situation if everyone is not going to handle it the same, and obviosly from what we have seen here, everyone isn't. I think to make it even more effective would be to say that any car not keeping up with the pace car or the rest of the field during a full course yellow may be black flagged.

Raymond

PS: IMO the sups should say that when a corner station is not displaing a flag then the course is considered green. Flag stations can be identified on the first lap of qualifying and practice sesions by a firled pass flag and on the pace lap of a race by a double yellow flag.

Geo
04-22-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by dickita15:
geo
where does it say in the gcr that you must see a green flag on a restart in order to resume racing.

OK, it is not specifically mentioned under restarts, however, the restart portion only deals with "administrative" issues of how cars will be lined up, etc.

I would review GCR 7.5.6 - 7.5.12 regarding starts. The race begins with the drop of the green flag. If you start racing on a restart before the drop of the green flag and you are protested I'll bet you $100 the protest will be well founded.

I believe that the SCCA did not reprint the procedure for starts once again under restarts because the starting procedure has already been described and therefore the only issues to address are the "administrative" ones I mentioned.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

RKramden
04-22-2004, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
PS: IMO the sups should say that when a corner station is not displaing a flag then the course is considered green. Flag stations can be identified on the first lap of qualifying and practice sesions by a firled pass flag and on the pace lap of a race by a double yellow flag.

No, flag stations are identified on the first lap of the first session ONLY by a single white flag. There is no such thing as a "Firled pass flag." If someone is doing that, then they are not following the GCR.

RSTPerformance
04-23-2004, 09:17 AM
Its just an idea, so that their are no excuses for not knowing where a station is, if you were to miss a (the first) session.

Raymond

bldn10
04-23-2004, 11:19 AM
You guys are doing a good job of arguing what 99% of the time is a moot point, and that is why it is not and does not need to be addressed in the rules. (See my previous post.) It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter. In this case it appears that Race Control told the corners that the course was green (& implicitly that they drop the yellows) despite the fact that the Starter had NOT thrown the green flag. That was the mistake. The drivers at the front who could see the Starter were correct in interpreting a wave off and the ones who could only see the corner stations were correct to interpret the dropped yellows as a start. And that's all I have to say about that. :-)

Geo
04-23-2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by bldn10:
It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter.

That is a good assumption, but it's still an assumption, and there in lay the danger, both figuratively and physically. I think most people would make this assumption.

Regardless, the race does not officially start until the green flag is waved. Dropping of the double yellows is not an official start.

One would do well to understand this distinction because those passing on an aborted start could very well be subject to sanction.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Catch22
04-23-2004, 11:50 AM
Its pretty simple really. At the start of a race the GCR says "green means go." Nowhere does it say "no yellow means go."

This really isn't any different than someone telling you that you can (for example) remove your heater core for IT. Even if that person is an official or a tech inspector, thats not what the rulebook says, so you can't do it.

Green = Go.
If you are staring in the back of the pack (and I'm ITC, so I usually am) and can't see the flag stand, you can CHOOSE to go when the yellows drop or when everyone else around you goes. And while this is what many of us do, it is plainly a violation of the rules.

Geezer
04-23-2004, 12:52 PM
It's the track's fault.

7.5.8

Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, and close enough that all drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line...

So if the track configuration doesn't allow all the drivers to see the Starter, there should never be a start at all. Maybe they need a taller starters stand, or a bigger green flag (he says, tongue firmly in cheek).

------------------
1988 CRX Si
ECHC H4 #38

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited April 23, 2004).]

JohnRW
04-23-2004, 01:12 PM
[quote]Originally posted by Geezer:
It's the track's fault.

7.5.8

Upon determining that the approaching field is at a constant slow speed, well bunched and in line, [b]and close enough that all drivers can see the flag, the Starter shall suddenly and continuously wave the green flag, until all cars have passed the start line...

Right on, Geezer. Nail head, meet Mr. Hammer.

ITSRX7
04-23-2004, 02:32 PM
That section you quote is from the START of the race - not RESTART. On the double-file start, NER uses a different config to get the START underway - one so that the entire field CAN see the S/F station.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

oanglade
04-23-2004, 04:00 PM
Like I said above:

9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

This is the section that applies to restarts.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

moto62
04-23-2004, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by oanglade:
Like I said above:

9.2.1 Operation and Control
"... Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

This is the section that applies to restarts.



Well there's your answer. So the start was not a start after all. Andy, you did the right thing by not taking off, and keeping the field at pace car speed.
Well done Ony. Seems like that section of the GCR was quite elusive from the rest of us. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
Ray

Dreamer
04-24-2004, 09:18 AM
I have been following this thread and find all your comments to be quite interesting. You have all made good points that deserve to be addressed in your rules. Why don't you contact your Road Racing Board and have them address the situation? The NE Road Racing Board could address it in the supps until the National Board makes a ruling. This would clear it up for all of you. As for me, I am a college student, looking for info to write a thesis on the mindset of the auto racer for a psych class. I may ask questions online as I have observed the Improved Touring group to be the most interesting group of racers in SCCA and the most impressive. Thank you.

bldn10
04-24-2004, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by bldn10:
"It is correct to assume that the course is green when previously displayed double yellows are dropped because that is not supposed to happen until the green is thrown by the Starter."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George: "That is a good assumption, but it's still an assumption, and there in lay the danger, both figuratively and physically. I think most people would make this assumption. Regardless, the race does not officially start until the green flag is waved. Dropping of the double yellows is not an official start. One would do well to understand this distinction because those passing on an aborted start could very well be subject to sanction."

There are assumptions and there are assumptions. This one is correct because drivers have to be able to rely on corner flag conditions. You cannot have drivers second-guessing flag conditions - they are to obey them even if the displayed flag is wrong. The only way drivers out of view of the starter know when a race has begun or restarted is by watching visible corner stations. When a double yellow is dropped the course is "green" at that station. In this case it appears that Race Control thought the green had been thrown at start-finish and told the corners to go green. That's why they kept gesturing to get going - until Race Control realized what had happened and stopped it. This interpretation is not in the Rules but it is inherent in them.

I described the situation to a Midwest Div. steward, stated my conclusions, and he agreed 100%. Not only would he not sanction the drivers in the back, he thinks they would be due an apology for putting them in a potentially dangerous situation.

lateapex911
04-24-2004, 01:33 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> originally posted by BLDN10: I described the situation to a Midwest Div. steward, stated my conclusions, and he agreed 100%. Not only would he not sanction the drivers in the back, he thinks they would be due an apology for putting them in a potentially dangerous situation. </font>

Well, NER recognizes that an operational communications misunderstanding was made, and certainly no drivers are being sanctioned or reprimanded, except for being (wrongly) called a jacka$$ here.

Unfortunately, this is another reminder of the advantages that go to the "haves" and the disadvantages the "have-nots" are dealing with. I have had the unfortunate occasion to be at the back of the pack for a start, and without a radio, it is often a guessing game at best.

That said, it aint green until its green, and you take your chances otherwise....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

JLawton
04-26-2004, 07:51 AM
Let me tell you, you can quote the GCR all you want, but unless you were there, in the back of the pack, you have NO idea of the confusion that was running through all our heads. Beleive me, there was no time to think about what the GCR said............

I took the conservative approach and did not take off. However, up until the moment they re-gridded me up front more, I thought I had made the wrong decision!!

This was a VERY freak event and hopefully won't happen again!!

------------------
Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

oanglade
04-26-2004, 10:05 AM
I think pretty much everyone would agree with you on that.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

Geo
04-26-2004, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by JLawton:
Let me tell you, you can quote the GCR all you want, but unless you were there, in the back of the pack, you have NO idea of the confusion that was running through all our heads. Beleive me, there was no time to think about what the GCR said............

Oh, agreed! I think that is why we are Monday morning quarterbacking this. It's like reviewing game films. There's something to be learned here for one thing.

But Jake is right, you take your chances because ultimately the GCR is the guide. I think it was reasonable not to sanction drivers, but I could also see where it would be reasonable to do so as well. Ya takes yer chances.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

gsbaker
04-26-2004, 01:27 PM
I think we should all chip in and buy corner workers green flags.

Gregg

CaptainWho
04-26-2004, 04:22 PM
We have green flags, at least at Road Atlanta. But we leave them in the "flag bag" when we're working SCCA events because the rules only allow the green to be used at start/finish. When we're working events under FIA rules (like HSR events) we use the green flag as expected.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing (http://www.nutdriver.org)

planet6racing
04-26-2004, 04:37 PM
Well, considering this is an anomaly (or is it anomoly?), I don't think we need the greens at the corners. The GCR does do a good job of describing the flag rules and covers most situations. This one was a complete fluke (not the result of any person or persons, it just happened to work out wrong) and that's why it happened.

I don't see any need to go changing anything at this point. It seems this was posted merely as something to think about and that's what's happened.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

gsbaker
04-26-2004, 05:33 PM
Hey Bill, how was your Sunday? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Gregg

bldn10
04-27-2004, 11:38 AM
"I think it was reasonable not to sanction drivers, but I could also see where it would be reasonable to do so as well. Ya takes yer chances."

George, you can disagree w/ me but I think the reasoning I used to arrive at my take on this is absolutely sound. The drivers at the back should definitely NOT have be sanctioned because no flag at a corner station does indeed mean green course at that station. That's why they don't bother to even take the greens out of the bag. A driver obeying the flag condition at a corner station is not taking a chance; indeed, he would be taking a chance if he did otherwise.

Geo
04-27-2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by bldn10:
George, you can disagree w/ me but I think the reasoning I used to arrive at my take on this is absolutely sound. The drivers at the back should definitely NOT have be sanctioned because no flag at a corner station does indeed mean green course at that station.

Please provide a reference in the GCR that states this.


For extra credit, please reference where a race starts when there are no flags displayed at a corner station.



------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited April 27, 2004).]

JohnRW
04-27-2004, 12:41 PM
All this would be moot if we ran under the same rules that SCCA Pro uses for rolling starts - basically "stay in two lines and NO passing or pulling out of line until you cross the start line".

I'm not advocating it...actually I think it sucks. The Pro races I've done require major reminders to all of us Club schmoes that we not screw up the start procedure. But...it does solve the problem. How often does this problem really occur, and why reinvent race starts for a problem that only occurs once every 20 years ?

Regardless of specific language in the GCR, IMO any group of SOM's (that aren't clinically dead) would not take action against Club drivers who 'started their race' when they saw the double yellows drop. That's why there are SOM's - to act as a court to interpret the sometimes fuzzy logic in the GCR.

timelapseracing
04-27-2004, 01:10 PM
I've been a flagger at Road Atlanta and Summit Point primarily, as well as having had the 'privilage' of racing in the back to middle of IT fields at Summit. From a flaggers perspective - when control tells you that there has been a start and you drop the double yellows the course is green - no matter what happend on the starters stand. Most turn stations can't see S/F. If the situation occurs that a green was not displayed at start and control called a start, then they should have immediately called a black flag all and had a black flag displayed at S/F so the rest of the pack that saw the drop of the double yellows would now have the information that there was a problem. You are correct that the starter starts the race, but control tells the F&C when the course is green - so from a racers point of view - if you see the double yellows drop - go - it is a green track until you see some information from the flags that it is not.

I agree conflicting information is a dangerous situation, but the response should not be to add another flag - when I'm not racing - I'm not going to stand there holding a green flag lap after lap for you to know that you can race. The flags in turn 10 at Summit and at the bottom of the hill at Atlanta often (and appropriately) serve as the information for the change to a green course condition for the back of the field.

Jason Fields.

------------------

bldn10
04-28-2004, 11:50 AM
George, as I have already stated in a previous post, it is not in the GCR and it does not need to be because it is inherent in the rules. Also, note that I referred you to my reasoning not to any rule. Once a race has officially started it remains green until some flag is shown. When that flag is removed the race reverts to green again. The Starter could just as well simply drop the yellow for restarts but probably tradition as much as anything has us making a big show w/ a waving green. But back at the stations all they do is drop their yellows, 99% of the time in conjunction w/ the green at start-finish. As Jason correctly explained, when Race Control says go, the race has restarted at the stations regardless of what happened or did not happen at start-finish. For that reason your bonus question is irrelevant to the issue of whether drivers at the back could have been sanctioned. It is not intended but possible, as at NHIS, for a race to have not restarted at start-finish but have at the corner stations. If the GCR covered every possible scenario it would be twice as thick as it is.

Greg Gauper
04-29-2004, 05:19 PM
Wow!

This is starting to sound like one of those abstract philosophy questions (If Helen Keller is alone in the woods and she falls down, does she make a sound?)

If a green flag is displayed, but nobody sees it, is the race under way?

It sounds like some people are getting hung up on the difference of having the green flag thrown on a start or in this case restart, vs actually seeing the flag as it is thrown. The track is green when the starter throws the flag and the corners drop their local double yellows. The rules say "when the flag is displayed" agreed, you may not see it, but none the less, it has been displayed.

In the case of Road America, one can be almost two or three miles away on the back side of the track when the field gets the green on the restart! You can bet your ass that I'm cueing off the workers dropping the double yellows to know when to go. As added incentive, having the workers vigorously waving a blue soon after because a faster ITS is coming up on you 30mph tends to reinforce the idea that we must be racing.

Geo
04-29-2004, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
The rules say "when the flag is displayed" agreed, you may not see it, but none the less, it has been displayed.

So, what happens when the green flag is NOT displayed?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Greg Gauper
04-30-2004, 12:09 AM
Simple. Race control announces over the corner communication network (radio or hardline, depending on the track) "No Start, No Start" and the double yellows are not withdrawn on the corners.

Keep in mind that control is usually in contact with the saftey steward in the pace car, and will inform the starter when the safety car is going to pull in. In lieu of a saftey car, the corners will advise race control if the situation that brought out the full course caution is sufficiently clear to resume when the leader approaches the starter. It is still up to the discretion of the stewards as to when racing will resume.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited April 30, 2004).]

Geo
04-30-2004, 10:00 AM
Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
Simple. Race control announces over the corner communication network (radio or hardline, depending on the track) "No Start, No Start" and the double yellows are not withdrawn on the corners.

Apparently not always.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

bldn10
04-30-2004, 01:07 PM
I mean this a clarification of my stated position but I may just be digging a deeper hole. It occurred to me that George and I might be somewhat talking apples and oranges. When I say the drivers who can only see the corner station are entitled to start racing when they see the yellows drop, I mean AT THAT STATION. When they enter the next flag zone and a different flag is shown, they have to obey it as well. If at NHIS the Starter put out a yellow then everyone should have stopped racing once they saw it. So, George is right that, although the race may have (erroneously) started for the drivers in the back when the corners dropped their yellows, that does not mean they could keep racing despite subsequent contrary flags.

One thing I am unsure of is whether a green is supposed to be shown at start-finish during the race. I did not find such a requirement in the GCR but I have been told that is the case and I think it is at least customary at some if not most tracks.

sgallimo
04-30-2004, 02:41 PM
Ok, here's a question from the other angle. Suppose that I'm starting/restarting WAY in the back and the car beside/in front of me has radio communication with a crew member on pit road. The green flag flies, crew member tells driver to punch it, and I see that car and all of the other cars with radios take off. I look forward to the next corner station and it is still double yellow. What can I legally do??

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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar

Knestis
04-30-2004, 04:10 PM
Accepting that this conversation is really trying to come up with failsafes against what is clearly an error in this case, it strikes me as potentailly dangerous when we EVER fully accept the absence of some signal as positive affirmation of something.

This goes back to the very first time that I saw the FIA use an ABSENCE of red lights to mean "go," at the beginning of an F1 race. What if there's a power outage before all of the cars are correctly gridded? I don't know of the system ever failing but I'll betcha that, the week after it DOES, there will be people doing the same kind of post-mortem that we are doing here.

K

RSTPerformance
04-30-2004, 05:50 PM
Scott-

That one is easy... You see Yellows... you can not pass!!!

Raymond

RSTPerformance
05-01-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Geo:
Please provide a reference in the GCR that states this.


For extra credit, please reference where a race starts when there are no flags displayed at a corner station.





I want the extra credit!!!!

The race is NOT BEING RESTARTED! If the course goes to full course yellow it is simply a full course yellow. the race is still presuming just with caution and no passing. The only time you have a restart is when the race is stopped. The race was not stopped. We had a full course yellow only! (until they pulled us in with a black flagg to regrid us after the crazy lack of green.) When the yellows dropped the course was green end of story that's it.

No green is needed following a yellow flag. when the yellows drop and or you pass the incedent and no yellow is present at the next station the course is green. I don't understand why noone gets this! I for one was mistaken and thought it was a waveoff and did not go. Looking back I was a fool and because of this I am shamefull. When I saw no yellow I should have raced!
The green flag means the same thing as a corner with no yellow flags.

Stephen

PS: I am the one that went from 1st to 8th from that restart craziness and has learned from it!

RSTPerformance
05-01-2004, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

If the course goes to full course yellow it is simply a full course yellow. the race is still presuming just with caution and no passing. The only time you have a restart is when the race is stopped.

Have you ever finished under a full course caution?

Stephen

RSTPerformance
05-01-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Have you ever finished under a full course caution?

Stephen


If so, how did you finish if you didn't start?

Stephen http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

grjones1
05-01-2004, 08:15 PM
[quote]I must add a recent experience to this discussion. At VIR in the rain, and I mean downpour, I approach NASCAR pursuing a B-210 C car- a car spins in front of us and stops mid-course. We negotiate by him I glimpse a yellow at the station as we pass the disabled spinner. Free of the incident, and no flags in sight, I pass the B-210. After the race I am called to the tower for passing under a full course yellow. I expalin I had no way of knowing there was a full course yellow until I reached another flag station showing double yellows. No good. I am penalized 1 place in the finishing order. Because I was not in a trophy position I did not appeal, but I feel thoroughly shafted. I waited until I was past the incident before I passed the car in front of me and I had no way of knowing the course was under full yellow.
But stewards must at times exercise their authority and to hell with reality. What really burns me is that the corner station at the incident should have reported the timing of the thing rather than make me out to be guilty of an infraction. And I didn't know any of the officials so they couldn't have done it because of personality conflicts- they just don't somtimes appear to realize what is actually going on out there. Thank you for allowing me to vent.
GRJ

grjones1
05-01-2004, 08:17 PM
[quote]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited May 01, 2004).]

lateapex911
05-01-2004, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by grjones1:
[quote]I must add a recent experience to this discussion. At VIR in the rain, and I mean downpour, I approach NASCAR pursuing a B-210 C car- a car spins in front of us and stops mid-course. We negotiate by him I glimpse a yellow at the station as we pass the disabled spinner. Free of the incident, and no flags in sight, I pass the B-210. After the race I am called to the tower for passing under a full course yellow. I expalin I had no way of knowing there was a full course yellow until I reached another flag station showing double yellows. No good. I am penalized 1 place in the finishing order. Because I was not in a trophy position I did not appeal, but I feel thoroughly shafted. I waited until I was past the incident before I passed the car in front of me and I had no way of knowing the course was under full yellow.
But stewards must at times exercise their authority and to hell with reality. What really burns me is that the corner station at the incident should have reported the timing of the thing rather than make me out to be guilty of an infraction. And I didn't know any of the officials so they couldn't have done it because of personality conflicts- they just don't somtimes appear to realize what is actually going on out there. Thank you for allowing me to vent.
GRJ

Thats a tough one. Was the 210 fighting for position?

Still, and I know you don't want to hear this, your loss is not huge, they could have been nastier. Not that it would be deserved!

Passing under the yellow is a touchy subject. Did you have video? If you did and I was a steward, I would have wanted to go as easy as possible.

Another reason to run good video with a WIDE lens.




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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Geo
05-01-2004, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:

I want the extra credit!!!!

The race is NOT BEING RESTARTED! If the course goes to full course yellow it is simply a full course yellow. the race is still presuming just with caution and no passing. The only time you have a restart is when the race is stopped. The race was not stopped. We had a full course yellow only! (until they pulled us in with a black flagg to regrid us after the crazy lack of green.) When the yellows dropped the course was green end of story that's it.

I'd give you points for effort, but this was already covered.

From the GCR 9.2.1 SAFETY CAR (Pace Car) Operation and Control

"Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

It's clear that the race is not restarted until the green flag has been displayed.

No points awarded.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

RSTPerformance
05-02-2004, 02:06 AM
"I'd give you points for effort, but this was already covered.

From the GCR 9.2.1 SAFETY CAR (Pace Car) Operation and Control

"Drivers shall maintain the pace established by the safety car and shall not improve their positions or begin racing until the green flag has been displayed and the race restarted."

It's clear that the race is not restarted until the green flag has been displayed.

No points awarded."

I think stephen deserves full credit for realizig the race was NEVER STOPPED!!!

Gret ovbservation Bro... I am glad you have finaly realized I would have beat you!!! http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

Raymond

ITSRX7
05-02-2004, 09:32 AM
Brothers Blethen,

The Pace Car was out. Sorry to say this but unless I got a green at the front, I wasn't racing - period. The back of the pack did the right thing by racing when the double yellow was dropped, we did the right thing by thinking wave-off when no green was thrown, and the Region did the right thing by regridding. The racers who were past the last corner station knew the track was not green yet. You can't improve on their positions...

This thread is dead. The drivers all did what they needed to do, there was confusion - and the Region made it right. End of story.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com (http://www.flatout-motorsports.com)

grjones1
05-04-2004, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
Thats a tough one. Was the 210 fighting for position?

Still, and I know you don't want to hear this, your loss is not huge, they could have been nastier. Not that it would be deserved!

Passing under the yellow is a touchy subject. Did you have video? If you did and I was a steward, I would have wanted to go as easy as possible.

Another reason to run good video with a WIDE lens.
No video unfortunately. The only thing keeping the 210 from attempting a repass was the uphill esses. We were side by side until I hit the first apex of the uphills. Yes, he was contending.
The only answer from the Stewart was that I should rent the track to learn where the flagstations are, which is rather confusing because if no flags are flying what difference does it make where the stations are, and no flags appeared again until Oak Tree. I've held a lap record at VIR since 1974(SSSC), I feel I know the course well enough. And I may make mistakes like everyone else, but I don't pass under yellow.
Thanks for the sympathy.
G

sgallimo
05-12-2004, 03:31 PM
So, we've all talked and/or thought about (sometimes in that order (: ) this question. I think most folks saw the discussion simply as an academic exercise since the situation likely wouldn't occur again. This past weekend, on the pace lap, as the well formed pack approached the Start/Finish line, the Starter enthusiastically waved the Checkered flag and double yellows dropped like flies. What followed was 10 of the most spirited cool down laps I've ever seen. I guess it was a tie. Track records for everyone!!


Act I, Scene III. A double sarrc/marrs in the VIR hamlet.
( enter LORD SEVEN and KING HONDA)

Lord Seven
To start, or not to start: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler to mind the suffering of back markers
Or to sling arrows at the offending Steward,
And by opposing them, to paddock and not to restart?
...
Billy Shakespeare Racing
(ex IT, now Prod driver)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Okay you can all curse me for dragging this thing back to the top.



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-Scott Gallimore
-ITC #88 Pulsar