Limited Prep

[JWiley]

Has anyone converted an IT car to Limited Prep Production? I am confused as to exactly what is required in the way of forward braces for the cage; we are running an ex-ITD Midget in ITC, and see some real problems in adding forward braces in the crowded confines of an unmodified engine bay. Any experience with this or more specific knowledge of the exact rules in this case? I'd like to stay in IT but I'm tired of being knocked off the track every 5 laps...

Thanks,

James Wiley

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by JWiley:
I am confused as to exactly what is required in the way of forward braces for the cage;

I don't have the exact wording in front of me, but in Production, you need to have braces at least to the firewall. You are allowed, however, to go through the firewall to the frame, etc., if you would like... I think the key is that the forward braces that are optional (recommended) in IT are required for Production... I'll read my GCR again tonight and let you know if I got that wrong...

Good LUCK!




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[Greg Gauper]

As somebody who did this last year....

The 7th & 8th cage points are optional in IT but manditory in prod. In IT, they can only mount to the firewall, but in prod they can either mount to the firewall or pass thru it and connect to the shock tower, which is what 99% of teh prod cars do.

Other items:

Fuel cells manditory in prod, optional in IT.

Driver and passenger glass must be removed in prod, but can only be removed from drivers side in IT if and only if your door bars extend into the door ala Nascar style.

Front windshield on open car in prod must be removed along with mounts. Must be retained in IT.

Front headlights and turn signals must be removed in prod and covered with matching plates or screens, but must be installed in IT but taped over.

Scatter shield required in prod if it presents a danger to the driver. In the case of a Spridget (next to your legs), you need one. Simple fix is a piece of 1/4" steel plate bolted to the tranny tunnel. Scatter shield recommended in IT.

You can move the battery in prod. You can remove the alternator in prod. You can do neither in IT.

You can mount ballast anywhere in prod but are restricted to a specific location in IT.

You can mount an airdam so it touches the ground in prod, but in IT it can't be any lower than your rims.

5" ride height limit in IT, no limit in prod.

You can run 6" rims in IT but are limited to 5.5" in prod for a spridget.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 03, 2004).]

[924Guy]

Excellent summary, Greg, thanks! Really helps clarify the "shopping list" for those considering a change...

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[Greg Gauper]

Forgot one more item but it's important....


In IT you can run 'pump' fuel which includes unleaded. In Prod you must run leaded 'race' fuel. Once you commit, don't switch back and forth because its a pain to get the old stuff out of the cell. Leaded race fuel is legal for IT but it is expensive and not required (110 octane in a 9:1 motor is a bit of an overkill!) I'm pretty lucky in that I have a roundy-round track nearby that carries race fuel for $3.50/gal and on Thursdays they have a special and discount it to $3.25. It does pass the fuel test. Some people have had luck using LL100 Avgas which can pass the fuel test and is much cheaper than race fuel. I think a lot of FV, FF, and FC drivers use it (basically stock 9:1 motors) from what I've gathered on their website. You would still be advised to have a sample tested before you commit in case theairport changes them formulation duringthe season.

[cherokee]

AVgas is a little different then auto gas, it has some additives in it that the car gas does not. You are not going to hurt anything running blue avgas (if you pull your converter) but I would suggest that you make sure that it will pass a fuel test. Also it is technically against the law to put avgas in you car, even if only for off road use. Lots of little airports are learning the hard way that they can get EPA problems if they get caught, then they get visits from the EPA,FAA and the rest of the goverment alaphabet soup.

[RSTPerformance]

I see a great summary, what about the engine and suspension?

Raymond

[Greg Gauper]

Shouldn't be an issue of AVGas hurting your car any worse than full blown leaded racing fuel. Both will attack a cat and/or O2 sensors. In prod, you have to live with that because that's the rule, stupid as it is.

I find it hard to believe that it is against the law to use AVGas in an offroad vehicle. Many of the big time Formula car engine builders recommend using AVgas to their customers (Ivey, Elite, Quicksilver come to mind). These are extremly reputable builders, well known nation wide. I find it hard to believe they would suggest something illegel to their customers. Multi-time national champ Dave Weitzenhof indicated (on the FC website) he uses AVgas during the normal season for cost reasons, but switches to the 'brew of the month' for the runoffs where the additional 1/2 HP or so becomes important.

I would say it is fair to state that some airports might have restrictions on who they sell to, and in some cases, drivers have come up with clever, legal solutions. As an example, the airport might require a tail number, any number, just to allow them to sell the gas, especially if it is some type of automated billing. They don't care what the number is but need a number before they can press the 'accept' button i.e. the computer needs to see all the data fields filled out. I've heard that one solution is to enter a tail number of 'N00000'. In other cases, the simple solution is to say your using the gas in an ultra-light, which doesn't require FAA approval or have an ID number but does require AVgas to run properly. There are quite a few airports in the rural areas that are unattended, pay-at-the-pump.

I do agree that it is illegal to use AVgas in a street car, because it bypasses the tax laws, and it damages the emissions equipment.

Not all AVgas will pass the SCCA fuel test, but I think LL100 does (this is what the DW and other formula drivers use). You would be wise to spend $5 and have a sample tested before using, or go to a known source that other racers are using who have had the fuel tested. Keep in mind that just because it passed the test today doesn't mean it will pass the test tomorrow. This is true for any fuel. Mistakes are made. The gas supplier can screw up and mix unleaded into the leaded tank causing it to fail (as happened at IRP in the past causing several national drivers who used 'track' fuel to get bounced!!)

Regarding the engine and suspension rules, in IT you are limited to how much you can physically remove from the head, i.e. 0.025" max, not to excede 0.5 compression point. In LP, you have no restriction on head milling, other than total CR which will be listed as a spec item in the PCS and will chnage from car to car. I think spridgets are allowed 11:1 CR but don't quote me. You can run ANY piston with any dish/dome configuration in prod. Other than the milling, the head rules are pretty much the same as IT i.e 1" port matching only, no porting or polishing.

I'm not sure about the valve rules. I am currently running stock. It has been implied that they must have the exact factory valve grind, but this has been debated on the prod web-site. I am running stock. DO NOT ASSUME FACTORY STOCK VALVES MEET THE PCS LIMIT FOR MAX DIAMETER! That's how one HP winner got bounced two years ago. One valve was 0.001 too big or something minor, but the driver admitted, he didn't check. Check them and have them machined down to the legal limit if required.

I don't know what the pushrod rules are because I don't have them so I tend to skip over that section of the PCS.

You can change the cam, max lift is spec item in PCS, duration is free. You can add an adjustable cam gear and timing is free.

In LP you must run stock rods but you can polish/lighten/nitride to your hearts content. You can regrind the crank to a maximum undergrind limit of 0.040"???? (I know there is a limit but off the top of my head I don't know what it is.) You can polish/lighten/knife-edge to your hearts content. Flywheels and clutches are free. Dry sumps prohibited unless factory stock.

The suspension rules are being strongly debated on the prod website. Suffice it to say the current rules only allow control arms to be reinforced or modified, but you must retain factory ball joints and tie rods. The Heim joint issue is being debated. Shock rules are similar to IT, but I think RR shocks are permitted. In the case of a spridget, your screwed because you have to retain the lever arm design, but you can upgrade to something bigger like MGB shocks. Dust off your 70's competition guide to relearn the forgotten art of tuning Armstrong shocks http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

The other big difference between LP Prod and IT is that you do need to pay attention to specific items listed on your vehicle spec line in the PCS. There are general rules for everybody and then specific adders/limits for each car. IT doesn't have that.

I'm still learning myself and am slowly working on changing the car from an 'IT car with slicks' to an actual production car. The nice thing is, you don't have to do it all at once. I'm doing it in stages on a tight budget, and I'm having a ball!

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]

[Greg Gauper]

Did some more thinking during lunch.

Another difference - In IT you must retain the stock bumpers. You can remove the bumpers in prod. If the bumpers are integral to the body molding i.e. like a Civic/CRX, then you can replace the bumper with a light weight replica.

In the case of a spridget, you've got two choices. Run 'naked' like most spridgets do, or run the late 70's bumper cover. I spoke with John Salisbury Jr at the runoffs who experimented with both noses on his LP spridget. He found a slight aero advantage with the late model nose, but he had a very hard time getting enough cooling air to the radiator. The 'naked' look ran much cooler.

I would suggest trying to contact either John or Kendall Jones on the prod website for advice. Kendall converted his Spridget from IT to LP prod two years ago and could offer insite. I used his suggestion of using Avons instead of Hoosiers for my first season since Avon made a 7" wide slick designed for sedans and it fits with no flares or spacers, and they work fine for somebody just starting out. John has probably the fastest LP spridget in the country and has finished top five at the last two runoffs.
I don't have their e-mails but Kendall does post on the prod website and you call PM him from there.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]

[JWiley]

Thanks for such detailed and helpful replies!

Greg, it seems to me that it would be a real challenge to get a forward brace thru the firewall to the shock tower; is that what you did? If not, can you simply bolt thru the firewall at any convenient location with a plate welded to the end of the brace, while welding (or bolting) the other end to the cage? I'm thinking along the lines of fabricating a completely bolt-on brace (similar to the bolt-in cages like AutoPower ans IO Port), but don't know if that would be legal in LP. Any pictures you could e-mail of your installation would be a big help.

I've already have a fuel cell in a steel can, but it has a FuelSafe "Sportsman" poly inner liner, which my local Tech guy says is inadequate; it must be a ballistic inner liner, which is an expensive pain, and, I think, unnecessary. Any ideas here?

I have a rather old Tech Bulletin outlining LP HP specs for the Spridget; is the min. weight still 1535 lbs.? I could get way under this by getting rid of all the mandated removeable stuff.

The scattershield is a new one on me. I can't recall ever seeing a production Spridget with plate welded around the tunnel--is this something new?

One last thing: I fear running slicks due to the greatly increased cornering loads that will be put on the weak stock Spridget suspension components. Double bearing hubs (legal?) would fix the back end, but what about the front? I saw some kind of strange additional "extra arm" support piece attatched to the stock lever-arm shocks on a neat LP HP Spridget in Savannah last year, but don't think that is legal, nor is substituting MGB Shocks.

I currently have a message in to the Comp Board regarding the logic of some of the required changes, like the cell and additional cage braces. I'm all for safety, but by inference we must then consider a legal IT car to be "unsafe", which I don't for one minute believe, I'm sure they will fall all over themselves to accommodate me in the next FastTrack. Does anyone know if there is an archive of Tech Bulletins accessible on the SCCA website?

Thanks again,

James Wilet
ITC Midget #72/Atlanta Region

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
Shouldn't be an issue of AVGas hurting your car any worse than full blown leaded racing fuel. Both will attack a cat and/or O2 sensors. In prod, you have to live with that because that's the rule, stupid as it is.

Very true. No matter how many times we ask, the unleaded fuel gets shot down. So we continue to buy AVgas that we buy locally. Interesting note about this is that there isn't an airport in site; just a lake. Don't know why they sell, just glad they do.


Originally posted by Greg Gauper:
The suspension rules are being strongly debated on the prod website. Suffice it to say the current rules only allow control arms to be reinforced or modified, but you must retain factory ball joints and tie rods. The Heim joint issue is being debated. Shock rules are similar to IT, but I think RR shocks are permitted.

As noted on the Prod site, Chris specifically asked about stock ball joints in the tent meeting, and was told that they were not required. Which means that we will probably get protested and lose. Appeal, and get told that the tent meeting means nothing.



------------------
Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Greg Gauper]

Originally posted by JWiley:

Greg, it seems to me that it would be a real challenge to get a forward brace thru the firewall to the shock tower; is that what you did? If not, can you simply bolt thru the firewall at any convenient location with a plate welded to the end of the brace, while welding (or bolting) the other end to the cage? I'm thinking along the lines of fabricating a completely bolt-on brace (similar to the bolt-in cages like AutoPower ans IO Port), but don't know if that would be legal in LP. Any pictures you could e-mail of your installation would be a big help.

I just added a simple horizontal tube from my front down tube to my firewall. Similar to (but not as extreme) as the photos in the 'Tech Center' roll cage photos in this website. Honda's are much different than Spridgets so I can't offer a suggestion on your car other than to take a look at what other spridgets are doing or have done, down in your area.



I've already have a fuel cell in a steel can, but it has a FuelSafe "Sportsman" poly inner liner, which my local Tech guy says is inadequate; it must be a ballistic inner liner, which is an expensive pain, and, I think, unnecessary. Any ideas here?

Are you referring to the bladder? I would think that a bladder legal for IT would be legal for prod (or perhaps in your case not legal for prod and not really legal for IT??) Most of the cells I have seen from ATL or Fuel Safe indicate 'approved' for SCCA. They don't differentiate between the classes. If your cell is not approved for SCCA, it's not legal for IT. I wouldn't think the bladder would be that expensive to upgrade, certainly less than a complete cell. $200-$300??



I have a rather old Tech Bulletin outlining LP HP specs for the Spridget; is the min. weight still 1535 lbs.? I could get way under this by getting rid of all the mandated removeable stuff. Don't know, don't have mine handy.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The scattershield is a new one on me. I can't recall ever seeing a production Spridget with plate welded around the tunnel--is this something new? </font> It has been a requirement going back as far as when my dad raced a bugeye in the late 70's. It doesn't have to be fancy. A square plate 6" x 6" bolted to the side of the tranny tunnel will suffice, either inside the car or underneath the car. Again, take a peak down in the foot well of a spridget in your area to see what is common.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">One last thing: I fear running slicks due to the greatly increased cornering loads that will be put on the weak stock Spridget suspension components. Double bearing hubs (legal?) would fix the back end, but what about the front? I saw some kind of strange additional "extra arm" support piece attatched to the stock lever-arm shocks on a neat LP HP Spridget in Savannah last year, but don't think that is legal, nor is substituting MGB Shocks. </font> The MGB shocks are legal. You can run any shock as long as it is the same type i.e. lever arm, strut, etc. You are allowed to beef up the control arms. You cannot move the pick-up points like the full prep cars. Racing slicks have a completely different feel compared to DOT radials. I have run Hoosiers on a friends spridget, and Avons on my car. I found the Avons to be a good 'trainer' tire to get used to slicks. They don't have quite the grip as a Hoosier, lasted pretty well, and were very light (4lbs lighter than Hoosiers!) I wouldn't worry about the extra stress compared to a 8" sticky soft Hoosier or Goodyear. From what I gather, the weakness on spridgets besides the rear bearings is front spindles, based on a recent conversation on the prod web site. Sounds like these are weak regardless of what tire you run. I would check with the spridget guys in your area to find out what they are doing.


I currently have a message in to the Comp Board regarding the logic of some of the required changes, like the cell and additional cage braces. I'm all for safety, but by inference we must then consider a legal IT car to be "unsafe", which I don't for one minute believe, I'm sure they will fall all over themselves to accommodate me in the next FastTrack. Does anyone know if there is an archive of Tech Bulletins accessible on the SCCA website?

Thanks again,

James Wilet
ITC Midget #72/Atlanta Region
[/B]


I agree to some extent. In other words, how does the car know it is safe when it wears IT stickers but unsafe when it where HP stickers http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif The implied reasoning is that the prod cars ARE capable of going much faster than their IT equivelants. I remember all the yelling and screaming that occurred when the prod cars had to add fuel cells and full 8-point cages. That's just the way it is. I don't know about archives other than SCCA fastrack on the SCCA website for monthly updates. I would spend the $25 for a GCR before building any racecar, or at least borrow a friends. I suspect you could get last years book from somebody for free and use it as a starting point, but you really need to get a current GCR.


[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]

[racer_tim]

James, I converted my ITB Rabbit GTI to Limited Prep G Production. As far as what I had to do, or in general what you would have to do for your MG, that's depends upon what you have done now.

My cage is an Autopower bolt in cage, with added door bars, and the front footwell attachments per the IT specs. Yes, it would be better to go through the firewall and mount to the shock towers, but I haven't done that yet. Like you said, I would bolt up a plate on the engine side of the firewall and just bolt that to the existing plate on the inside firewall.

I took out all of the AC and heater core stuff, but left the stock dashboard. I'm also still using the stock wiring, since I'm no electrical engineer. Removed the bumpers and supports, but have gone back to a front bumper in place of a single tow point. Removed the drivers and passenger's glass, and re-located the battery to the passenger seat area. Fire system and fuel cell are required, but you should have those in IT anyway. Rear window straps and windshield clips are also required. Removed the lights and used the left front as a air "scoop" to feed the stock fuel ingition.

I'm using the same IT suspension, but have added some different spacers, since the 20x8x13 slicks have more shoulder than DOT tires. BTW, the outside diameter of a 20" slick is 20" so you get an advantage of a larger ring / pinion by going with a smaller diameter tire. Suspension settings will be WAY different going to slicks. Don't buy new tires for a while, until you get everything setup correctly.

I haven't gone to Lexan everything since the car currently makes weight, but the car weight is a different story.

In the motor, I went with a little hotter cam with HD valve springs, 16v pistons machined down to match the 8v piston deck height. I can go to 11.0:1 compression, so I did it that way instead of milling the head. Prepped and balanced rods with ARP bolts. That's all I've got in the motor.

Stock close ratio 5 speed with a 4 puck 210mm clutch, just like IT. IT brakes, and that's about it.



------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Greg Gauper]

Oops, fingers slipped while editting.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 04, 2004).]

[Greg Gauper]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
James, I converted my ITB Rabbit GTI to Limited Prep G Production. As far as what I had to do, or in general what you would have to do for your MG, that's depends upon what you have done now.

I took out all of the AC and heater core stuff, but left the stock dashboard. I'm also still using the stock wiring, since I'm no electrical engineer.


I think anything to improve upon the 'Prince of Darkness' aka Lucas would be an improvement. You can significantly lighten/simplify the wiring of a spridget since they aren't very complicated, especially when the battery is removed. Basic spridget electrical system = ignition + fuel pump + and brake lights+ auxiliaries like fan (if installed) and radio. A transponder draws very little juice. I reused my Honda harness when I converted from carbs to FI. I transplanted the harness from a parts car but cut out all the stuff that will never be used again, like interior lights, stereo, AC controls, etc. I was amazed at how heavy a stock harness is!

[cherokee]

I am a pilot and worked at a airport for a while so I know how thing work at least in KS,MO. If we got caught putting gas in something that was not a aircraft we where in deep dodo. We even required that if you need gas to get to the pump the truck or wagon would come to your hanger. The taxes are worse on av then they are for auto gas...last I knew (about 7yrs ago) auto gas was taxed at about +-50%, av is at about 75%. If it is a state run airport or not will effect the price a little bit. Ultralights, expermintals run under a whole host of different FAA rules and do not HAVE to run av gas...most ultra lights are Rotax powered and run just fine on pump gas, it only realy becomes a issue when the density alt. gets too high and the auto gas will cause you to detonate. My last local airport sold auto gas for planes that had STD for autogas...and that was more expensive then gas down the street.
But I am 99.9% sure that putting avgas in a ground car,motorcycle,boat,weedeater is against the law. They may not hunt you down (bigger fish to fry and all). I agree with all the reasons to use it...but just understand why if the place you get it from stops selling the gas to you.

Funny thing to all this is, when gas goes up at your filling station like before a big weekend the gas at the airport stays the same...kinda makes you go hmmmmm.

[JWiley]

Greg,

I've got a current GCR, but there seem to be some unclear areas in that never-never land between IT and Prod. The cell issue is one of those; my bladder is a polyethylene shell filled with foam blocks, the standard "Sportsman" model, inside the FuelSafe steel can. It is legal for IT, since "no cell" is legal, and is SCCA approved. The "faster cars" argument occurred to me, too, but ITS/ITA cars are as fast as HP cars, aren't they? The logic still escapes me, and $400-$500 for anything unnecessary is way too expensive in my book. What I was told is that the bladder must have an FIA ballistic-type rating printed on the container, and the poly cell does not meet that standard.

By the same logical standard, requiring a full fire system in Prod and not in IT is exactly backwards.
Which is more likely to burst into flames, a car with a fuel cell, or one without? Not that I don't think a full system is better in any case, I just want to see some common sense applied to the rules. Being forced by my sanctioning body to spend money on nonsensical "stuff" really gets my goat!

Tim,

How competitive are you in GP, and do you feel that slicks are that much faster than the sticky IT nearly-slick DOT Hoosiers?

We are going 11:1, hotter cam, that's about all we can do motor-wise. Wish there was more to adjust on the Midget suspension!

[planet6racing]

Well, they aren't forcing you to spend the money. It's still your choice...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Greg Gauper]

slipped. fat fingers.

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 05, 2004).]

[Greg Gauper]

I won't comment on the safety issues and can't speak about your fuel cell issue. I wasn't aware of the cheaper alternate so I don't know the details. I ran a stock tank in IT for years and just bit the bullit when it came time to putting in the stuff. It is for that reason that I have been doing the conversion in stages. Suffice it to say, the rules said 'do it' so I did it. End of discussion.

Last year, the car was literally an IT car on slicks w/stiffer springs. I ran my 5-year old, tired IT motor and the only thing I did was swap heads from the carb'd motor to the injected motor and convert from carb to FI. I actually lowered my compression in the process compared to my IT motor, but the head and FI added more power. My rings were shot, but the motor ran and ran and ran....

There is a big difference in the feel and handling between slicks and DOT radials. Slicks are faster, but require a different set up, and have a different feel. Slicks are much lighter than DOT tires and lower your equivelent final drive i.e. higher numerical. So in my case the gearing was improved. Slicks have much more rolling resistance compared to DOT radials! I had more power, better gearing, but less top end compared to IT!! But my lap times were much lower, and while the top end was lower (felt like hitting a wall) you got their quicker.

As for results, I finished every race I started. I was typically a solid mid-pack car, which was a bit depressing since I was a front running ITC car in Cen-Div (2003 champ). But I took it in stride since I knew what I was getting into when I decided to switch, and I figure I'm 2-3 years from being a serious front running contender. That said, I'm having more fun racing for 4th/5th/6th with actual competition, compared to ITC where sometimes I was the only car that would show up. I finished 4th in division nationally in Cen-Div, and qualified for my first Runoffs and had a great, 6-way battle near the back of the pack for 25th. I had the slowest trap speed but was not the slowest car. I was, to say the least, encouraged.

My developement plans are to do the most cost effective mods first and do one thing at a time as my budget (and talent level) will allow.

Phase two of my conversion is to build up the motor to LP specs (it is at King Motorsports as we speak having 'the works' done to it), and to move up to 8" Hoosiers from my 7" Avons. I will also shift some weight around with more glass & dash gutting, Lexan, and ballast. I will also play around with some different rear spring rates since they are pretty cheap and easy to switch.

My goal for this year is to drop my lap times by approximately 3% at all of the tracks that I ran at last year, which won't make me a front runner, but should make me a consistant top 3 finisher in Cen-Div. I would also like to finish in the top 15 at the runoffs, or at least run with the other Hondas.

Phase three will involve upgrading my gearbox and fitting an LSD.

After that, I figure I will have covered the easy things that make huge gains in lap times. From there the gains will take more work, time, effort, and are smaller.

I can't speak for others, but I can say I knew what I was getting into when I decided to switch. I'm not whining or asking for changes yet, since I haven't fully developed my car. I know I will never have the budget or driving talent to be a runoffs front runner. I am having fun and have met some wonderful people in the prod community, but still have close ties to the IT group since that is where my roots are (15+ years).

The other reason for jumping in to prod last year was to get used to being on track with the really, really fast national E-prods. I wanted to get used to being on track with 'the regulars' and getting used to the speed differential which at some tracks like Road America, are very high. I knew I needed to build up my confidence running with the hot shoes, and this wasn't as difficult as I expected, but part of that comes from many years of running the slowest class in multi-car race groups i.e. when I ran SSC, I was on track with SSGT Vettes & Porsches which blew my doors off on the straights. When I ran ITC I got my doors blown off on the straights by ITA/ITS/ITE cars. Now I'm running GP and get blown off by E-Prods. The more things change, the more they stay the same http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 05, 2004).]

[JWiley]

Greg,

Sounds like you have a very well-thought out program--hope you are successful; I will not be leaving ITC as you did as a front-runner, more as a moving chicane.

Your last post sort of reinforced my sense of general confusion at the rules; it sounds like you were able to run limited prep with your glass in place, which I thought was prohibited. I take it you installed the full fire system as required

Thanks for all the inpui!

James Wiley

[racer_tim]

James, the only glass you HAVE TO REMOVE are the door glass. Headlights also if want to consider those "glass".

As far as being competitive in GP? Last year at Laguna Seca with my new motor, and decent (read used) slicks, I did a 1:50. Qual record is 1:47 and the race record is 1:45. I'm in the hunt with my regional competitors (Full Prep Spitfire, Full Prep Datusn 510, Limited Prep MGB) but am not quite up to "National" competition level. I need to do more to the car to be there, but I'm just happy to be out there with the "big boys".

I currently run a stock windshield, rear window, and side windows on my LP VW Rabbit. I do have the required tabs in the front and the straps in the rear. That's the minimum as far as "glass" goes.

Of course, your could replace all that with Lexan but that's an additional cost and would be "nice" to do if your car is over weight, but again, that's not required.

I converted the car for 2 reasons: 1. Quality of track time. I'd rather run with 30 big bore cars than 50+ IT cars. 2. I wanted the "ability" to run a National race every once in a while.

------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[This message has been edited by racer_tim (edited March 08, 2004).]

[Greg Gauper]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
James, the only glass you HAVE TO REMOVE are the door glass. Headlights also if want to consider those "glass".


Tim,

He is racing a Spridget. Per PCS D.9.a.7 (page 27)

Windshield - Open Cars: The windshield and all side rear glass on open cars shall be completely removed.........

I agree on closed cars a.k.a. "Tin Tops" you must remove driver and passenger glass. Rear glass can be replaced to save weight.

But open cars are not as easy to run as dual purpose IT/Prod.

And on ANY prod car, headlights must be removed, per PCS D.9.a.12 (page 29)

[This message has been edited by Greg Gauper (edited March 13, 2004).]

[apr67]

Originally posted by JWiley:
Greg,
Which is more likely to burst into flames, a car with a fuel cell, or one without?

More often than not I would say cars with cells are more likely to burst into flames.

My Miata's tank is wedged right behind my seats, ahead of the rear axle, designed by engieers and tested to be safe. It is attached to a factory fuel system designed and tested to not 'burst into flames'.

So I replace that with bubba's cell in my trunk, 2" from my back bumper and 8 inches from the ground, design my own fuel system with joe's hoses and I have..

A mess.

I'll take the stock tank in most any 1980 or later car over the typical cell install that can be accomplished in a production based racecar (IT, production.)

Alan

[Quickshoe]

When comparing cells to stock tanks, not their placement or quality of installation the cell wins hands down.

Agreed, a stock tank in a Mk1 MR2 is probably safer than hanging a cheap cell in harms way. However, we aren't allowed to utilize cheap rotary molded cells, are we?

The fact that the cell has a bladder and foam greatly reduces its' likelyhood of puncturing and exploding when properly installed.

APR67--while your Miata and my old Mr2 might have had engineers who found a decent place to hang the tank, I imagine they were more concerned about trunk space and interior room in both instances. Those cars are the exception, not the rule. A (custom shaped) cell in the same location will be safer.

[Greg Gauper]

Like others have said, depends on the car.

About 5 years ago, I witnessed an IT RX-7 catch fire in a big way when it spun under braking coming into turn 5 at Road America and backed into the armco. I was working F&C on phones and it scared the hell out of me when it went by in a huge fire ball! Split the stock tank wide open at the seam.

I suspect that in most cases a fuel cell is much safer than a stock tank. Those bladders are pretty strong.

I was concerned about weakening my unibody by cutting a hole in the floor to mount the cell, so I built a 'cage' out of 1.5" angle iron to bolt in from the bottom of the car. The cell sits in the cage and I use straps from the top to hold the cell in place (I couldn't mount my cell flush with the floor so I had to add the cage to keep the cell above the minimum height of 6"). I used the stock location. My cage helps restore some of the stiffness lost from cutting the hole.

happens more than you think.

http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.p...&cat=500&page=1 (http://www.calclub.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=334&password=&sort=1&cat=500&page=1)

[JWiley]

Thanks fot the further input on cells in general. I'm curious as to what the group's take is on my argument concerning the lack of required cells in IT versus the ballistic bladder required in Limited Prep. Should most IT cars without cells be considered death-traps, and should the SCCA be sued for allowing so many racers to be at risk? What exactly is the rationale for allowing any car on the track without a fuel cell? Am I way off base to think I could (and should be allowed to) race safely in Limited Prep with my existing rotary molded cell? Just wondering...

James Wiley
#72 ITC (LP/HP?) Midget

[cherokee]

I think that the reason that IT cars can run the factory tank is the dual nature of IT. They are still street cars (Ya I know most are not). But I think that is where the Glass,lights.....rules come from.

[planet6racing]

My opinion on the matter:

Car fuel tanks are installed with a metal bulkhead between you and the tank. In my case, it is the floor of the car. This nicely keeps the tank and it's gas separate from the passenger compartment and keeps me safe for a period of time in the evnt something goes wrong. Additionally, manufacturers are required to do crash testing to insure that the tank isn't going to pop in a typical street accident. My tank is, essentially, a roto-molded plastic tank with a check valve at the filler nozzle. This makes the stock tank no better than your roto molded tank.

When installing a fuel cell, you will have to cut this factory bulkhead due to SCCA requirements for fuel cell mount (or have a custom cell made). It will be up to you to fabricate a new bulkhead and insure that it is crashworthy. Based on some of the garage engineering I have seen from some folks (the minority, fortunately), I feel that some cars can be a bigger risk with a cell that with the stock tank.

Finally, I don't think you could sue the SCCA over this. Fuel cells are not required but are strongly recommended. It is your choice not to follow their recommendations and it is your choice to put the car on track. Plus, if you sue the SCCA after signing the waiver, it states that you will pay all their legal fees as well as any rewards given in the legal case.

Something to ponder.

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[eprodrx7]

20+ years of racing I have only once seen a stock tank fall out of a car. This was due to improper instalation and the strap bolt backing off. Same amount of time I have seen two cells fall out due to design failures ie the support structure failing. They do not do well when dragged at 100+ mph

[joeg]

Like many things in racing what was once a production vehicle--I'll not try and second guess a manufacturer. Stock gas tanks are pretty safe if kept in good condition (straps, hoses, no corrosion).

[Tom Donnelly]

Pardon me for this but...

Why would you want to sue the SCCA or any other sanctioning body for that matter?

This is racing. Not fishing.
And it is dangerous no matter what you do.

And you can get hurt. Or killed, or worse.

You should realize that before you get on the track and if you don't, that's scarey.
There is no replay button.

Sorry, I just hate the word "sue".

Tom

[Knestis]

I don't think anyone seriously suggested suing SCCA...

Re: the stock tank question, it's my belief that even the difference between a 20-year-old car and a 10-year-old car is significant, in terms of fuel tank safety.

For this I think we CAN thank the litigation-positive atmosphere here in the USA.

K

[JWiley]

I dislike today's litigious atmosphere as much as anyone, and used the word "sue" in a figurative, not literal way. I agree that nobody forces anyone to race, and that. yes, it can be terminally dangerous ( not that a substantial number of IT-iots currently racing seem to recognize this, but I've ranted about that before). My point was what I consider to be inconsistencies in SCCA rules which frustrate participants, with no real gain in any practical or logical sense. A concerted effort by the SCCA to weed out all the careless/crazy/inconsiderate/irresponsible drivers would do more for safety than a fuel cell in every car!

James Wiley

[Joe Craven]

I installed FIA approved bladder type fuel cell in my 1971 ITB Capri in place of a cheap rotary molded fuel cell. In my opinion, even the good bladder fuel cell is much more dangerous than the 30yo stock gas tank.

The location of the stock tank is much better for safety. Of course, I installed the fuel cell for optimum weight distribution.