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View Full Version : Discrepancy in GCR concerning wheels for my car...



eMKay
02-08-2004, 01:34 PM
Here is the email I sent to the SCCA concerning my situation, I would much rather run the stock 14" wheel size because the tires are much cheaper, and the wheels are lighter.

"I am in the process of building a 1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS into an ITA racecar, however I noticed a discrepency in the 2004 GCR concerning this car. In the ITCS section 7.a.1 (wheels and tires) it states "All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type." My car came with 14" wheels as original equipment, however in the list of cars under 1995-98 Mitsubishi Eclipse the only wheel size listed is 16", this seems to contradict the wheel and tire rule, which tire size am I allowed to use on this car?"

Geo
02-08-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by eMKay:
Here is the email I sent to the SCCA concerning my situation, I would much rather run the stock 14" wheel size because the tires are much cheaper, and the wheels are lighter.

"I am in the process of building a 1995 Mitsubishi Eclipse RS into an ITA racecar, however I noticed a discrepency in the 2004 GCR concerning this car. In the ITCS section 7.a.1 (wheels and tires) it states "All other cars shall retain the wheel diameter fitted as original equipment for their make, model, and type." My car came with 14" wheels as original equipment, however in the list of cars under 1995-98 Mitsubishi Eclipse the only wheel size listed is 16", this seems to contradict the wheel and tire rule, which tire size am I allowed to use on this car?"

Did you include factory documentation with your e-mail? If not, you may want to follow up with a scan of factory documents (FSM, owner's manual) to support your request.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

eMKay
02-08-2004, 04:25 PM
I have a picture of the doorjamb, and a scan from the factory service manual, think that will be enough?

http://www.ubrfvideo.com/eMKay/tire.jpg

http://www.ubrfvideo.com/eMKay/tire2.jpg

Geo
02-08-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by eMKay:
I have a picture of the doorjamb, and a scan from the factory service manual, think that will be enough?

I would highly recommend sending the scan from the FSM.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Ron
02-08-2004, 10:10 PM
Not to steal this thread, however, I run a ITB Mustang and if I can run the wheels that came stock can I run a 15x7. The magic book already says 15". What about 7" if they are even stock rims?

Knestis
02-08-2004, 11:13 PM
Diameter is spec'd by the ITCS book - width by the class. ITB is allowed 6" max width of wheel.

K

eMKay
02-09-2004, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Geo:
I would highly recommend sending the scan from the FSM.





Thanks, I sent a follow up with it included.

Knestis
02-09-2004, 02:23 PM
Just anticipating potential hiccups, you'll need to make it clear from whatever you send that (a) you are working on a car that meets the dates and model of the spec line in question, and (B) the documentation applies to all of those same years/models.

It is pretty common for the cars listed in the ITCS to not include all of the eligible years that a model was produce, for the trim levels to be incorrectly or incompletely listed, or for specs to be incomplete. But you knew that already, right? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Have fun!

Kirk

eMKay
02-10-2004, 08:28 PM
I heard back from the SCCA today, they say the wheels size should be interpreted as the maximum size, so guess I can use 14, 15, or 16" wheels.

"Michael,
Take a look at page ITCS-37. If you look at the Mitsubishi's specs, it lists the wheel size as 16". The wheel size should be interpreted as a maximum wheel size.

Regards,

John"

Jake
02-10-2004, 10:27 PM
WHAAAA???? Does that mean that we can all use smaller diam wheels?!? And all this time I thought....

Jake
02-10-2004, 10:36 PM
Does that mean you could use 13"s?

Can you use 15's because your spare is a 15?

Knestis
02-10-2004, 11:30 PM
No, no, no, no, no. That is wrong. I don't care what John thinks, it is just wrong.

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited February 11, 2004).]

Jake
02-10-2004, 11:42 PM
I gotta get a hold of this "John" guy. Maybe he'll let me run a Turbo!

Banzai240
02-11-2004, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
No, no, no, no, no. That is wrong. I don't care John thinks, it is just wrong.

K

I agree with Kirk... there is no basis for this interpretation that I've ever read... Otherwise, why list multiple sizes and not just the maximum...



------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

Geo
02-11-2004, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Banzai240:
I agree with Kirk... there is no basis for this interpretation that I've ever read... Otherwise, why list multiple sizes and not just the maximum...

Yeah, Darin is right.

Look, the last thing you want to do is to invest in some wheels and find out they are worthless for your purpose.

Keep in mind there has been a relatively recent change in the technical staff at SCCA HQ. There are a lot of rules to be up on. The interpretation you received is wrong.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

RacerBill
02-11-2004, 01:20 AM
Was there a correction issued to amend the 2003 GCR? The copy that I have lists on page ITCS-33 Plymouth Laser/Eagle Talon/Mitsubishi Eclipse 2.0L (no specific years) Wheel Dia. (inch) 13. Another reason why the rules should be available in updated form online!

eMKay
02-11-2004, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by RacerBill:
Was there a correction issued to amend the 2003 GCR? The copy that I have lists on page ITCS-33 Plymouth Laser/Eagle Talon/Mitsubishi Eclipse 2.0L (no specific years) Wheel Dia. (inch) 13. Another reason why the rules should be available in updated form online!

I don't know, I have the 2004 book and didn't notice what you see, it sounds like the 89-94 model you are talking about, mine is a '95

eMKay
02-11-2004, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Banzai240:
I agree with Kirk... there is no basis for this interpretation that I've ever read... Otherwise, why list multiple sizes and not just the maximum...



Yeah, good point...His name is John Bauer BTW, he copied Jeremy Thoennes on the message as well.

Knestis
02-11-2004, 02:03 PM
Email him back (and cc Jeremy) asking for the court of appeals case information that establishes this change in ruling. The IT rules are based on the SS rules that specifically required (and continue to require) OE wheels.

This kind of thing is really irritating and should be added to the list of ways that rules creep happen.

K

eMKay
02-11-2004, 06:28 PM
I emailed him back, his response was...

"Michael,
This is my observation from countless hours of reading the GCR. Anytime you can go to the dealer and pay extra for an upgraded package that includes larger wheels, it is ok to put the larger diameter wheels on the car without the upgraded package. I hope that made sense. If it didn't email me back!"

So here's what I'm going to do...Run 14's, if anyone whines, I'll have my service manual, the rulebook, and printed copies of the emails.

Banzai240
02-11-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by eMKay:
Anytime you can go to the dealer and pay extra for an upgraded package that includes larger wheels, it is ok to put the larger diameter wheels on the car without the upgraded package.

You can read the GCR until your face turns blue... If the spec line for your car (talking IT here guys), doesn't specify the wheel size, it's NOT legal...

There is nothing in the GCR or ITCS that says you CAN use a wheel other than that which is specified in the specifications for the car as listed in the ITCS. Rather than pull out the particular sections that support this, I'll just refer you to ITCS 17.1.4.C - Specifications and you can read it there...

NOW, that being said, it may not be an issue in the future... change is in the air... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif


------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited February 11, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited February 11, 2004).]

Greg Amy
02-11-2004, 11:07 PM
I cannot believe this guy is giving such bad advice. Any wheel other than that listed on the spec line for your car is illegal. I would REALLY Like someone from the ITAC to run this one up the SCCA flagpole before it gets out of hand (and find out who this guy is and set him straight.)

Then again, there's that nasty "rules interpretation" in regards to suspension spherical bearings that was made "legal" by a single approval from an SCCA tech guy...

Banzai240
02-12-2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by grega:
I would REALLY Like someone from the ITAC to run this one up the SCCA flagpole before it gets out of hand...

I just sent a note to Jeremy with a link to this thread and my interpretation of the rule. I also cc'd the ITAC.

I'll let you know what comes back...

It's always possible that there is an obscure reference in the GCR that changes this, but I'd be suprised.

Maybe he was talking about the WIDTH, and not the diameter???

We'll see...




------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

Geo
02-12-2004, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by Banzai240:
Maybe he was talking about the WIDTH, and not the diameter???

I cannot imagine that even being correct.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Banzai240
02-12-2004, 09:12 AM
Originally posted by Geo:
I cannot imagine that even being correct.

Not sure what you mean??? You can't imagine him mixing up the two thoughts? Or you can't imagine that the width IS an absolute maximum in IT, and you can run something narrower???

The later is absolutely true... http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/biggrin.gif

------------------
Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited February 12, 2004).]

Joe Harlan
02-12-2004, 10:44 AM
Well guys I don't see where you can change diameter from anything other than what is listed in the spec line. But running a width that is less than specified for the class is supported by ITCS7.a.6: Maximum alowable rim widths:..........

eMKay
02-12-2004, 03:56 PM
I think he's not understanding me, he's assuming I want to run 16's, I am going to email him back and ask that 14" wheels be added to the spec line.

Geo
02-13-2004, 12:42 AM
Originally posted by Banzai240:
Not sure what you mean??? You can't imagine him mixing up the two thoughts? Or you can't imagine that the width IS an absolute maximum in IT, and you can run something narrower???

Hehe. I was thinking in terms of widths that the car came with from the factory. Wishful thinking I guess. I'd love to run my stock 8" wide wheels. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com