custom NASCAR rear swaybars?

[zooracer]

I have a FWD swift with a later model rear swaybar of 19mm. The front one was removed.
I'm in need of a big adjustable bar for the rear, and it was suggested by John at Baucom motorsports that I look into a rear bar used by the nascar guys. It is a big straight bar with splined ends, then different sized end peices for adjustability.
John said he could fit it to my car.
Anyone with experience with these and any idea where to find one, maybe used?

[Greg Amy]

It's not a bolt-on affair; you've got to fabricate:

http://www.kakashiracing.com/swaybar.html

I used parts from Speedway Engineering, specifically:

http://www.1speedway.com/Swaybars.htm

Rotates nicely... http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif

[zooracer]

excellent, thank you, and john will be the one fitting it to the car...
One more quick question (rather then starting up a new topic). I bought some redline lightweight shockproof for my tranny in the hopes that the additives would help my "phantom slip" work better. I was running mobil one 75-90w...
Do you think it will make a difference?
I wont bother doing it before the race if it wont, and instead save the bottles for my new tranny/LSD in a couple of months.
matt

[racer_tim]

Matt, you only need a big rear bar if you go with a LSD. I run a locked front diff in my FWD Wabbit, and use a large front bar, and a 19mm standard aftermarket rear bar.

The diving style with a locker is different with a LSD, so the setup of the suspension is also different.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[zooracer]

hey tim, I had actually planned on going with the OPM LSD. I spoke with lots of people and was advised against it. I was told about the huge amount of push and other problems.
I know I had heard of people like chris albin who run it and do well, but I never actually spoke with him.
It'll be about a grand after all is said and done (maybe more), but I guess if I want to win, thats what I have to do.
It was a hard decision...
Perhaps after trying it, if it doesnt work well, I will try a welded...
On the other hand, running a welded would also apparently save me money on a rear sway bar, which after fitment would prolly cost about 400 or so...
hmmmmm.
matt

[grjones1]

[quote]

Matt,
Most FWD racers I know run large rear bars and smaller front bars (if any) regardless of whether the diff is welded, Quaife-style, or clutch. (That gets rid of a great deal of your FWD understeer.) And no disrespect for Tim but I'll bet he's running 1000-lb. front springs (and God knows what rate in the rear in his Prod car. Get in touch with Saner in Florida, they'll help you.
GRJ

[zooracer]

yes, I was a little thrown by the fact that he wasnt running a big rear bar.
I'm running 350# front springs and 600# rear, on a 1795lb car.
I figured with a welded diff you would need even more oversteer, as they really tend to push? I had heard the driving style was where you throw it into the corner with foot off gas, as the rear comes around, point wheel to apex and floor it?

So, does anyone think running redline shocker in the diff will make any difference on my phantom grip. Should I bother?

[grjones1]

Originally posted by zooracer:

I'm running 350# front springs and 600# rear, on a 1795lb car.

Matt,
Others are more expert than I, but again, with front drive you want those heavy rate springs in the front with equal or less rate in the rear. [All your weight is at the front of the car (65-35, I'll bet). I think you've got it backwards. Talk also to Ground Control, they sure helped with my Fiesta, also >1800 lbs. We've got it about as balanced as a short wheel-based FWD can get.

And yes you accelerate to pull the car out of the drift if you're not in too hot. But again I try to accelerate slightly before or at the apex, almost the same as with rear wheel. Seems to work. Of course I'm an old codger and do it "traditionally: slow in fast out." Even with front drive. Don't get too wrapped up in the FWD/RWD difference - the rear wheels still have to follow the fronts. If I'm making any sense?

GRJ

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 16, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by grjones1 (edited February 16, 2005).]

[racer_tim]

GRJ and Matt, no disrespect, but I'm NOT running 1,000 lbs springs in the front. I'm running 500 Lbs in the front and 350 lbs in the rear. I have thought about going a little higher in the rear, but haven't done it yet. BTW, "traditionally: slow in fast out." works for me.

With my setup, you brake in a straight line, grab the appropriate gear, dump the clutch, turn in, and mash the loud pedal.

That might sound a bit "harsh" but it works for me. My GP car has the same suspension as when I ran it in ITB, except for raising the front ball joints about 3/4" to get the control arms "level" after lowering the car. The 20" slicks make my 3.94 R&P act like something much higher, but other than a hotter cam, 16v pistons, and removal of stuff to get down to 1,965lbs, my Wabbit is IT legal.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[grjones1]

Originally posted by racer_tim:



Hey Tim,
It was the heavy sway bar in the front that led me to believe you might be using heavier springs. Whatever works for you guy. I'm sure your Wabbit would rip my Fiesta. Good luck this year.

GRJ

[joeg]

Just remember guys that when your throwing out spring rates for the rear (FWD to FWD comparisons) you are doing a disservice to the person with the initial question if you are not looking at the design of the rear suspension (beam, IRS, IRS inboard, IRS outboard, etc) in order to determine "wheel rates" of your car.

For example, my 1000lb rear springs work out to a 450 wheel rate.

Cheers.

[zooracer]

yes, sorry to lead you astray buy my rear's are mounted inboard, so much lower then true 600#
But, my real question was answered about swaybars, thx
Tim, if your welded works for you, maybe I should go back to considering them. So much cheaper...
Curious that your not running a bigger swaybar or stiffer rear springs. And leaving your front swaybar on...
Maybe this is the hot setup for welded diff's?
matt

[racer_tim]

Matt, you also might want to check with Chris Albin, since I believe that he also runs a locker up front.



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">For example, my 1000lb rear springs work out to a 450 wheel rate.</font>

Good point. My rear 1200# rear springs worked out to about, like, 1150 pounds (damn near 1:1 motion ratio...)

[zooracer]

yes, chris albin does run a locker, and he seems to be pretty fast. Usually places pretty well at the runoffs.
I will look into it some more.
matt

[zooracer]

Hey Tim, I did email J. Goodale, who places in the top ten at the runoffs in GP with a swift. He runs a welded diff with stock swaybars all around. Said the welded removed all the push in the car (he was running a phantom grip before).
He runs a gripper LSD from england now, but doesnt think it gave him any time.
So, I think I will try the same route and see what happens.
Let you know the result
matt

[zooracer]

just quickly for FYI,
found out woody deatherage, ran in top three at runoffs before crashing, runs a welded with stock front and rear bars.
Sounds like welded is the way to go.
matt

[ShelbyRacer]

At least it'll be consistent...

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[zooracer]

yes, although I have to admit I'm still a little nervous about doing it with all the hoopla I've heard about how it will screw up your handling...
But if really, really, fast guys with MY model car are using it...
must be right!
matt

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">But if really, really, fast guys with MY model car are using it...must be right!</font>

It's mindsets like this that allowed folks like Penske and Yunick to show up and clean everyone's clocks...bottom line, just 'cause the "fast" guys are doing it, that don't mean it's the FASTEST they can possibly be...

[zooracer]

Ok, I can see your point.
But,
if you are running top three at runoffs (I think he was second at one point), then you have shown that a welded can be fast.
Now you can say that maybe he had a killer motor or some such.
But,
to run that well at the runoffs, pretty much the whole car has to be working really well as a unit. Now there may be various levels of components on the, say, top ten cars. Meaning some may be running 20K dollars worth of shocks, while others may be running 2K worth. But I dont see anyone in the top ten running a component that is not proven to work, and I mean work WELL, on the model they are running.
If someone has 30K on a top running GP car, which is not unheard of by any means, then why would they sacrifice a second or more a lap on an inferior LSD or welded set up?
Not only this, both swifts that qualified so very well at the runoffs, are using welded diffs.
Actually, J. Goodale now runs a gripper from england. He says he cannot see any extra time from this though...
matt

[zooracer]

OH, and penske and yunick were legends of motorsports engineering in a racing environment.
I consider myself a decent driver. But, I'm a very average joe shmoe when it comes to race car fabrication and engineering. I have neither the time, money, and definitely not the legendary expertise to do what penske and yunick did.
I think in my situation it is best to see what the experts are doing. Chances are they have experimented with different set ups before arriving at their current set up.
matt

[Piper]

matt,
I had the chance to drive a swift with a welded diff after i drove it with a open(yeah i know) diff. The car pulled through the corners very well as long as you were on the gas, if you coast at all the car will push no matter what is on the rear for suspension. That being said it handled very well and seemed fast.
There was a guy in minnesota the won the regional points with a swift some years back and i know he had a welded diff as well in his swift.
Hope that helps ya with your choice.

[shwah]

Originally posted by zooracer:
just quickly for FYI,
found out woody deatherage, ran in top three at runoffs before crashing, runs a welded with stock front and rear bars.
Sounds like welded is the way to go.
matt
Chuck Mathis also runs welded in his Rabbit and was getting along pretty well for the first 17 laps. IMO welded is a great way to go.
Chris

[zooracer]

I think you might be refering to Kaz Bush or something like that? I had heard of him also, apparently did really well in ITB. I heard he was constantly protested, even though nothing was ever found illegal, and he eventually gave up and quit?
Well I'm in the process now of pulling it and taking it to Baucom's for welding.
Will report on it once I get it on track.
My first event with it may the the big may event at VIR...
matt

[shwah]

Kaz Bush? Don't know if you are talking to me, but Chuck Mathis did have success in ITB and ITA for a while (also running welded diffs). He was driving the orange GP Rabbit that ate concrete two laps from the end of the Runoffs. Nothing illegal about his cars at all.

[This message has been edited by shwah (edited March 24, 2005).]

[zooracer]

Yeah, I had heard albin runs a welded also.
Kaz drove a swift in ITB.
So far as coasting goes...
There isnt supposed to be any in racing, right?
The only real disadvantage I had heard of is that it can be harder on tires, which isnt a great thing, thats for sure.

[racer_tim]

In my opinion, a welded diff is no different on tires than anything else.

While going through the corners with a solid front diff, the car "feels" like it's pulling from the inside, which it is, since the inside wheel is traveling less distance than the outer one.




------------------
Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer_tim @ yahoo dot com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by zooracer:
I think you might be refering to Kaz Bush or something like that? I had heard of him also, apparently did really well in ITB. I heard he was constantly protested, even though nothing was ever found illegal, and he eventually gave up and quit?
Well I'm in the process now of pulling it and taking it to Baucom's for welding.
Will report on it once I get it on track.
My first event with it may the the big may event at VIR...
matt

It's "Kaj Bush", and yes, he ran an ITB Swift GTi. Holds the ITB tack record at Summit Point w/ it (1:30.499, has stood for several years). He converted the car to a GP car, and ran it a few years in the MARRS series. Don't know what ever happened to him. I never saw the car run in ITB trim.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608