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RSTPerformance
04-01-2004, 05:28 PM
Ok I am probably annoying some posters with all my seemingly meaningless posts about this stuff, but it is helping me a lot in my decisions... I value the input I get here a lot. Thanks for anything you have to offer....


Here is this "topics" question:

What brake pads are you running, why, and how do you like them?

Raymond "Stop me now before I loose control" Blethen

A little extra for those that would like to indulge...

We run Protafields on the Audi Coupes and as mentioned in other posts, I am not pleased with the inconsistency with the pads performance. I did just talk to Carbotech and it seems like they have a very good product. I also got information on how to see what compound each Portafield pad is (sadly I did not know how to check this before). I am thinking seriously of switching to Carbotech by Monday (so I can get an order in before the first race in April) as they are less expensive pads and feedback I have so far is they are a far superior. What are your thoughts? Quoted price was $120 - $130 for Carbotech.

gran racing
04-01-2004, 06:19 PM
I used one set of Porterfield's race compound pads, but was very frustrated with the amount of time they lasted. And when they cost around $160 for my pads...

Jake recommended the Carbotech pads to me. Their customer service is excellent, price for the pads reasonable (far cheaper than Porterfields), and they actually last a fair amount of time. Oh, the pads I use are the Panther XP pads. I will definately be ordering from them again. Very, very happy with them!

I would be surprised if you didn't like them after trying them. If you do, let us know what you think after using them...

------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

dominojd
04-01-2004, 06:39 PM
I'll chime in on this one. Carbotech panthers are worth every penny. Shameless plug.
I used Porterfields once never again. They had a good intial bite but seemed difficult to modulate. After talking to Larry at Carbotech he explained the reason for it being that the pad would actually slightly glaze from the braking heat and you would have to put more brake pressure to make them stop. Also I have never stress cracked rotors from the carbotechs like I did with the porterfields.
The durability of the Panthers are great also. I have never worn out a set completely I usualy change them just because I have a few events on them.
In 2002 I ran my Sentra in the 3hr enduro at the glen,the 15min pratice session and 20 min race the next day,ran an EMRA race at lrp with them( 15min practice 10 min qualifying 20 min race)and then the next spring ran 4 20-30 min sessions with pda at LRP. So that pretty much 6hrs on track with one set of pads and there were 3/8 to 1/2 of the pad material left. This was on the XP8 material they now have XP9 which is even better.
You can say well maybe I don't use the brakes enough. AT that EMRA race I was running pretty equivelent lap times to MR FATTY BOOMBATTY in his RX-7 and kept him in sight the whole race. He won I took third and I don't remember who second was. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
To sum it up Carbotech brakes are great and Larry and MAtt are great people to deal with.

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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

four27
04-01-2004, 06:40 PM
Buy a set of stock rotors from Diversified Cryogenics and have them cryo them and match you up with their pads. Incredible deal will last you a season.

04-01-2004, 09:23 PM
hawk blue's in front, hawk black in rear

Bill Miller
04-01-2004, 09:33 PM
Ran Hawk Blues in the ITB GTI, and I run them on the HP Rabbit. I made the mistake of trying the Mintex blue pads (1155?) once. Never again! I've heard the Carbotech's are good, but I have no complaints about the Hawks, so I can't see changing.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

ddewhurst
04-01-2004, 10:29 PM
Hawk blues both ends of a 1st gen Mazda RX-7.

Hvae Fun http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

Banzai240
04-01-2004, 11:20 PM
The Hawks have my vote as well...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX
http://home.comcast.net/~djjordan/Web/DJ_AV1.jpg

CaptainWho
04-02-2004, 12:32 AM
Hawk Blues on both ends of a Gen1 RX-7 (ITA/IT7 car). Chose those because they're the pad of choice among the IT RX-7 racers we know and we haven't had the time and money yet to do any serious comparisons. With the Hawk Blues, we have the bias as far forward as we can get it. The rears wear about half as fast as the fronts on our setup.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing
www.nutdriver.org (http://www.nutdriver.org)

Blix
04-02-2004, 01:05 AM
I use Hawk Blues, and people tell me that they eat rotors...I haven't had that experience, but after I talked to them, they told me that it's because they need to get HOT enough. When they're cold, they munch rotors. So I run them w/0 the brake ducting, and have had great results.

Eric
NER SSM #12

04-02-2004, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by Blix:
I use Hawk Blues, and people tell me that they eat rotors...I haven't had that experience, but after I talked to them, they told me that it's because they need to get HOT enough. When they're cold, they munch rotors. So I run them w/0 the brake ducting, and have had great results.

Eric


NER SSM #12


I have tried and tried to talk to my brake rotors, first of all my family and even my dog looked me like they wernt sure where their next meal was coming from and second I have never gotten so much as a peep out of them, what's your secret eric? do you have to use a sexy voice or do you whisper into their vanes? http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif





[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited April 02, 2004).]

moto62
04-02-2004, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by dominojd:
AT that EMRA race I was running pretty equivelent lap times to MR FATTY BOOMBATTY in his RX-7 and kept him in sight the whole race. He won I took third and I don't remember who second was. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif
To sum it up Carbotech brakes are great and Larry and MAtt are great people to deal with.

Hey! I remember that. 1st in the race and 2nd in the enduro with the 1g RX-7. In that car I ran with Hawk Blues front and rear.
In the Integ, I run blue front and black rear. I've always had pretty good luck with the Hawks. I don't believe you can measure longevity of brake pads as far as how many events you get on a set and so on. What I believe is important is how a set of pads holds up over the duration of a race, sprint or enduro. I for one, like to go in deep(wishful thinking) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif so I can really abuse a set of pads. I have never had any brake fade or any issues of overheating brakes or fluid. Hawks have been very good to me so I don't forsee changing anytime soon. LRP has HB's in stock and if they don't have what I need then .... http://www.raceshopper.com/hawk_brake_pads.shtml Ed Robinson will take care of you.
Ray

downingracing
04-02-2004, 09:21 AM
I run Carbotech pads on my Civic. They seem to last forever and work great no matter how 'used up' they are. I run stock shoes on the rear (poor man's bias control http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif ) I made the huge mistake of trying EBC pads once. They didn't work at all! They were worn down to the backing plate after ONE day at IRP.



------------------
Matt Downing
www.downingracing.com (http://www.downingracing.com)

x-ring
04-02-2004, 11:40 AM
I use Hawk Blue pads on the front and the nismo (ferodo) shoes on the back.

I have been getting close to a season out of the Hawks, and Z's are notoriously tough on brakes. One set of pads will eat up two sets of rotors.

Greg Amy
04-02-2004, 12:21 PM
Hawk Blue in front; stock pads in back.

Edit: ITS Nissan NX2000, front-wheel drive, 2490 pounds.


[This message has been edited by grega (edited April 02, 2004).]

joeg
04-02-2004, 01:06 PM
DITTO

BMW RACER
04-02-2004, 04:38 PM
Front: Hawk Blue.
Rear: Hawk Black.
Love them.
Some of this info can be missleading, we don't always know what car people are running, that can make a big difference, RWD vs FWD Heavy vs Light. Maybe we should all be required to list our cars when we sign off.
Cheers.
John Norris
BMW 352 E36 ITS

pgipson
04-02-2004, 06:26 PM
Spec RX7 (about 2600 #)

Hawk Blues in front

Hawk Black at the rear (and they are so old i can't remember when I put them on. At least 20 race weekends ago)

Jake
04-02-2004, 09:40 PM
Front: Carbotech Panther Plus
Rear: Carbotech Panther XP

I put the better pads in the back because they have a higher CF to put more bias back there.

I've run 10 race weekend, 2 Enduros, several HPDE's, and an autocross on these over a year and a half and they still have plenty of meat.

That's right. I've been using the same pads and rotors since 2002. And those who race with me know I go in very deep. (however, my car doesn't get going all that fast...) http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/frown.gif

Jake
ITA MR2

Allen Brown
04-03-2004, 06:38 PM
I have to chime in for the Carbotech bandwagon. I run Panther XP on the front and Panther Plus on the rear on my GSL-SE (RX7) that weighs in at 2530lbs. My fronts are lasting approximately 16 hours at a medium braking track and the rears are lasting at least twice that time. My front rotors get changed out at the start of each season.

Last yesr I measured the new jobber rotor to the old jobber rotor that was being pulled off the car. Only 0.3mm wear...I had to measure a few times to ensure I was reading everything correctly. Ceramic based instead of a semi-mettalic of the Hawk Blue.

Decent initial bite with the XP, not as good as Hawk Blues, but very easy to modulate when pushing hard. I've never had them fade...and I run a 2 hour endurance race each race weekend.

I even went and ordered a set of their Bobcat compound for my truck...but I can't comment on that, I haven't installed them yet.

RSTPerformance
04-03-2004, 06:56 PM
Thanks everyone for your input. We will be getting the new panthers from Carbotech to try out. They will be making the pads for us (If we send them baking plates) as they only sell them for the larger (updated) brakes which almost all Audi's other than the early early 80's have.

The cost of the Carbotech’s is about $40 a set cheaper then the Protafields so it’s well worth a try. If we are unhappy with those then we will go try out the Hawks... I must say our decision to go with Carbotech was the result of Larry's great customer service.

I will be sure to post our comparisons.

Thanks again

Raymond Blethen


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http://rstperformance.bizland.com/rstsignature.jpg
RST Performance Racing
www.rstperformance.com (http://www.rstperformance.com)
1st and 2nd 2003 ITB NARRC Championship
1st and 6th 2003 ITB NERRC Championship
3rd 2003 ITB ARRC Sprint Race
4th 2003 ITB ARRC Endoro
1st 2003 AS NERRC and NARRC Championships

Silkworm
04-05-2004, 04:41 PM
Carbotech Panther XPs all around.

PaulC
2G RX-7 PS-1/ITS

Jan in Omaha
04-06-2004, 02:18 AM
SSC Neon

Hawk Blue front / O'Reilly cheapies rear

Tried HP-10's and were OK. Better modulation but wore faster than Blues.

Tried Carbotech XP8 but had severe backing plate issues (inner pads warped terribly) Larry acknowledged that this is a problem with Neon pads. If they work this problem out I might try them again.

Staying with Blues for now.

jlucas
04-06-2004, 07:50 AM
SSC Civic SI - Cobalt Friction Spec VR
I've tried Hawks & Carbotechs previously, like the Cobalts better, more grip & easier to modulate (no ABS).

Jeremy Lucas
Team Honda Research
Kumho-Cobalt-Comptech

Jake
04-06-2004, 08:29 AM
Great thread.

BTW, there are eleventeen compounds of Carbotech pads. It would be helpful if people would mention the compound. (the Panthers are good, the Panther Plus are better, the Panther XP is even better)

Super Swift
04-06-2004, 11:26 AM
Performance Friction!!
compound *97*

Spec Miata & ITS e36(ARRC enduro winner)

They are simply the best pads. Try them and you to will know why.

some reason I wrote 93 instead of 97 *sorry*

[This message has been edited by Super Swift (edited April 20, 2004).]

philstireservice
04-06-2004, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Thanks everyone for your input. We will be getting the new panthers from Carbotech to try out. They will be making the pads for us (If we send them baking plates) as they only sell them for the larger (updated) brakes which almost all Audi's other than the early early 80's have.

The cost of the Carbotech’s is about $40 a set cheaper then the Protafields so it’s well worth a try. If we are unhappy with those then we will go try out the Hawks... I must say our decision to go with Carbotech was the result of Larry's great customer service.

I will be sure to post our comparisons.

Thanks again

Raymond Blethen




Ray, A lot of the Honda Challenge guys run the Carbotech's with great results. The initial bite is very good, but you do have to add a little more foot pressure after that.....I don't run Carbotech, although Larry has asked me repeatedly to, I run Hawk blues and like Bill M., no problems so far so I have no reason to change.

------------------
Phil Phillips
94 Acura Integra GSR #4
ITS/H3/ST1
www.philstireservice.com
Official Independent Amsoil Dealer for the East Coast Honda Challenge
distributor for FireCharger AFFF fire systems
Hoosier Tire Dealer
Toyo Tire Dealer

RSTPerformance
04-06-2004, 04:40 PM
Phil what brakes did you use in your Audi?

Raymond

philstireservice
04-08-2004, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Phil what brakes did you use in your Audi?

Raymond

ATE pads on the front and stock Audi shoes on the rear....that car had very good brakes in the front...never used the rear much.

------------------
Phil Phillips
94 Acura Integra GSR #4
ITS/H3/ST1
www.philstireservice.com
Official Independent Amsoil Dealer for the East Coast Honda Challenge
distributor for FireCharger AFFF fire systems
Hoosier Tire Dealer
Toyo Tire Dealer

Racescort
04-08-2004, 09:07 AM
I use Carbotech Panther XPs also. They last forever and have great bite.

------------------
Doug
87 Golf GTI
[email protected]

7racing
04-08-2004, 10:29 AM
Hawk Blue front/rear on the 1st gen RX7. Hawk Blue front/rear on Spec Miata (1.8). Ran an enduro with Hawk Black on a Spec Miata (1.6). Don't use Black compound on the front!!

Thinking about HT-10 front/blue rear on the Nissan (2530lbs).

Jeremy

Eric Parham
04-08-2004, 05:01 PM
On FWD VW front brakes (I use various stuff on the rear drums with an adjustable prop valve to balance it all), I have experience with Hawk Blues, Porterfields (don't know designation), PFC and some sort of ceramic pad that I wish I could remember the name of.

I had trouble modulating the Porterfields and will avoid them in the future.

The PFC pads ate and, even worse, *cracked* rotors regularly, but were otherwise pretty good (I believe that they discontinued that material). I did have some trouble with the material falling off the backing plate if the car sat for more than about a month after a hot event. I would probably use them again if they get reintroduced.

The ceramic pads were fantastic. Reasonable initial bite and a dream to modulate. They ate rotors as fast as the pads, but the rotors for a VW are cheap. I would use them again if I could remember what they were. I loved the noise they made once they were up to temp -- it let me know *exactly* what they were doing. Might try the Carbotechs, since they seem to be ceramic too.

The Hawk Blues are good and consistent. Not the best I've ever used, but very very far from the worst. Readily available is nice too. They seem to be pretty easy on my rotors, not that I care too much about that.

evanwebb
04-08-2004, 06:33 PM
Really interesting, I use Porterfield R4 on the from of my ITC scirocco and I've been happy with them (stock shoes on the rear). Am I missing something? What advantage do the Carbotech (which compound?) or Hawk Blues have over the Porterfield? I guess it's possible that the R4 doesn't have a super-high friction coefficient, but I don't know how to compare. One caveat is that I race mostly at Summit Point, and there is a heavy, straight braking zone from high speed in Turn1 and Turn 5, and I don't touch them anywhere else. Are there some conditions where the other pads behave better in some way? I'm converting the car to limited-prep HP and I'll be going faster but the car weighs less, and I hadn't planned to change anything on the brakes, but I will if there is some advantage... Thanks!

RSTPerformance
04-19-2004, 05:50 PM
I said I would give feedback so I will...

I loved my brakes sooo much better than last year. They felt much more responsive. I also had redone all my lines and put in a brake bias. So my brother quickly said that I can not give accurate feedback, so I said well then what did you think?

He said the carbotechs were more responsive than the portafields, and that he did not have and fading at all. He was very pleased that we went through the effort of trying something new. Not only is it much cheeper but it is a better product.

The carbotechs were a little more than quoted (we were quoted 129.99 and sold to us at 139.99) When we placed the order Larry was not overly interested in making these pads as he wasn't going to make any money so I did say I would understand if they were a little more $$$. I also had told him that the pads were very very thick (I had no idea) they actually are not suposed to be that thick, so when they arrived they didn't fit. Randy 15 (one of our crew) spent a couple hours bonding with a grinder and the pads making them fit. They came out reasonably well without to many high spots.

We have been sold on the Carbotechs and I encourage anyone running on Portafields or any other pads to try out the Carbotechs, and offer your feedback as well.

Raymond "Mr. Carbotech, do I deserve some sort of discount for this yet" Blethen

GKR_17
04-19-2004, 06:38 PM
Performance Friction

97 is the best overall compound for IT, but they have others for a few specific applications.

JohnW
04-19-2004, 09:48 PM
Carbotech. Period end of story.

I'm one of those Honda-Challenge guys Phil is talking about.

I LOVE the Panther XP1108, the 1109s were even better and this spring tested the NEW 1110s. I think the 1110's maybe a bit too strong for my 2100 lb H1 Civic but if I raced a AS Mustang or T1 Chevy that IS the pad to have.

If I get out qualified by another non-Carbotech car, I simply hunt them down, melt their brakes and take the corner. Its kinda cool! :-)

JohnW.
Team Carbotech #88


[This message has been edited by JohnW (edited April 19, 2004).]

Russell
04-20-2004, 08:45 AM
I tried the Carbotech panther xp 1109 pads on the front of my ITS sentra se-r. I did my double drivers school at Roebling road no problem (not much braking there). My next race was at Moroso. everyone told me that Moroso was pretty easy on brakes as well. I guess it is not that easy because I DISTROYED the carbotechs there. Granted they felt good all day long and never faded, till the piston on my drivers side caliper did a cookie cutter through the backing plate and into my rotor! I will NEVER buy carbotechs again.

I tried a set of Raebestos ST41s from Porterfield. I bedded them in at Daytona but did not even make 5 laps in the Saturday race due to axel failure. My next race on them was at Sebring short course which everyone seems to know is a brake killer. I had great brakes all day long on both days and had about 1/2 pad left at the end of the weekend. I am sold

I have also used Hawk blues at Sebring short and experienced fade.

All of this was done with 3" brake ducts.

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SPiN Racing
04-21-2004, 02:59 AM
I Know you already decided. sooo this is informational for everyone.. http://Forum.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

I have run Hawk BLues and Blacks.. I run RX-7's.. and specifically.. Ran the blues on Sebring Long and Short on Track Days.. (Chin Motorsports) on a 86 RX-7 Sport EP prep.. and a 88 RX-7 T2 with healthy mods. BOTH cars had no brake ducting.. and I could go 10 10ths for over a hour long or short course without fade. I wore out before the Brakes faded.
Rotor wear was minimal and the pads lasted through prolly 6-7 Chin events for each car. Each event gives appx 6hours of track time.

Now.. I DID make a mistake on the 86 and DROVE the Car on the street for a week with the Blues on it.. And well... THe rotors were GONE in a week... I mean 80 percent life to vanes showing in TWO weeks. So YES.. They will DESTROY rotors unless at temp.

Hawk Blacks. I ran them on short course Sebring front and back.. in a ITA 85 RX-7 and they were kinda marginal while running.. had a healthy bit of fade.. Prolly 3/4 pedal travel.. Not soo good. minimal ducting. When On the cool down lap they went away... the fluid in the calipers boiled out and I had to overshoot the hair/safety-pin.
The rubber on the calipers caught fire when I stopped in the pits.. Soo I would say No to Blacks on the track.

Talked with the engineer for Mintex pads at SEMA this year.. and talked at length. They use smaller particles in the pad material.. so I am going to try a set on the 86 EP to see how they work. But I prefer the Blues myself.

Scott
SPiN Racing

Carbotechmatt
04-22-2004, 11:12 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I tried the Carbotech panther xp 1109 pads on the front of my ITS sentra se-r. </font>
Actually Russ, according to computer records, you purchased 1108 compound, not 1109, which was not released yet when you purchased.

[This message has been edited by Carbotechmatt (edited April 23, 2004).]

Knestis
04-23-2004, 12:04 AM
Hmmm. Seems to me that some of the thermal failure modes that have been described here - the cookie cutter piston trick (I've seen that kind of thing), boiling fluid, or flaming seals - don't have a darned thing to do with pad compounds.

K

Eric Parham
04-27-2004, 03:01 PM
I'm curious about the "cookie cutter" type of failures. Having never had or seen this one, it seems to me that it would only happen once the pad material was gone so that the metal backing plate hits the metal rotor and gets hotter than otherwise possible. In that case it only makes sense that the high points (piston outline) could get hot enough to melt steel. Was that the case with Russ' failure?

dominojd
04-27-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Eric Parham:
I'm curious about the "cookie cutter" type of failures. Having never had or seen this one, it seems to me that it would only happen once the pad material was gone so that the metal backing plate hits the metal rotor and gets hotter than otherwise possible. In that case it only makes sense that the high points (piston outline) could get hot enough to melt steel. Was that the case with Russ' failure?

Not nessisarily. I have seen a set of pads do this where the pad stopped the car as if the brakes were fine. Later it was found out while changing pads that th e backing plate had got hot enough to indent the piston in it and actuaaly warp the backing plate. The only material still touching the rotor was where the piston was located. And there was still plenty of material on the pad.
This tells me that the pad material can hold much more heat than steal backing plate. Pretty crazy. Oh BTW these brakes where Carbotech XP8's. They have some good pad material.


------------------
Crazy Joe
#7 ITS pilot

SPiN Racing
05-01-2004, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Knestis:
Hmmm. Seems to me that some of the thermal failure modes that have been described here - the cookie cutter piston trick (I've seen that kind of thing), boiling fluid, or flaming seals - don't have a darned thing to do with pad compounds.

K

Actually.. It does have a lot to do with the brakes. The 1st generation RX-7 mentioned in the previous post is now running Blues.. and on Sebring I can run harder.. and deeper with less braking effort, and heat.. and the calipers experience no problems like they did with the Hawk Blacks.
The CF of the brake pad material is what generates the braking force.. combined with the Squeeze of the Rotor itself.. The combination generates heat. If the CF of the pads is high enough you will experience greater stopping power with less pedal effort. (Squeeze of the pads)
Therefore you are going to generate less heat.
Take a tire and spin it when the car is on a jack stand.. try to stop it with a handkerchief.. and then after it stops feel the heat generated by the pressure/friction generated.... Now press a brick to the tire to stop it while spinning.. The brick has greater CF and therefore requires less pressure to effect the force to stop the tire spinning... YES this is way over simplifying things.. But the basic concept I believe is sound..
The more badass the compound.. the greater the stopping force with lower effort on the pedal.
If you have a pad that sucks.. you are going to have to press harder.. and it will be a LOT more inefficient in stopping.. Therefore generate more heat than stopping power.

Knestis
05-01-2004, 08:52 AM
Sorry - Newtonian physics argues against your explanation. Brakes turn kinetic energy into heat energy, and the fundamentals of thrermodynamics allows that heat energy to be transfered to the air.

A car going from 120mph to 70mph sheds a specific amount of energy this way and the only variable is the time over which it does it - and the driver controls that by picking his or her shutdown point.

If the backing plate is getting hot enough that it reaches its thermal yeild point - goes soft - it is because the pad material has reached that same temperature. More friction will only produce more heat energy, more quickly. This assumes that there is no improvement in airflow (velocity or temperature differential) to deal with the increased heat.

I guess that my earlier statement is incomplete in that if the pad compound can't cope with what it's being asked to do, it will physically wear and/or simply come apart - leaving the backing plate alone to do the job the compound should have.

If the pad material is STILL SOUND and the backing plate has gotten hot enough to distort (I've seen this), then there are two choices, given no change in ambient temperature - (a) brake earlier to put the time quotient more in your favor in the heat-shedding rate, or (B) get more air to the brakes. Boiled fluid and failed seals? Even more so. I completely fail to understand how different compounds will fix those problems.

K

JohnW
05-01-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by SPiN Racing:

The more badass the compound.. the greater the stopping force with lower effort on the pedal.


This is correct only to a degree. There are negative trade-off's with too aggressive a compound.

Take the Hawk blue. Good compound but everyone I have spoken to say they lock up and flat spot tires easily. Hoosiers at 187.00 each are too expensive for that short-coming in the formula for me.

Another concern, How can one formula (Hawk Blue) be optimal on "all cars" from a ITC Honda to a T1 Z06???? It isn't possible. Sorry.

The compound is important, but how the materials are combined, what percent(s) are added and when along the production line they are introduced are as important. Componding is a true "Black Art".

I run Carbotech because they spend countless track hours tesing new compounds prior to their introduction. Not every compond is right for every car. The new XP1110s were too strong for my H1 Civic. However, they kick ass for a T1 Chevy that is 1500lbs heavier.

John- who spent 3 days last week at the Carbotech factory and encourages his competitors to continue to buy the other brands. :-)

Carbotechmatt
05-01-2004, 04:19 PM
Kirk is absolutely spot-on with his assesment. The only thing that affects the amount of heat generated while braking is the weight of the vehicle and the velocity. KE=1/2*mass*(velocity)^2. If you stop your car using balsa wood in the caliper, you will generate the exact same amount of heat as you would if you used a real brake pad.

Now with a *real* brake pad, you can generate that heat in a shorter time and therefore acquire a higher *temperature*. That's something too many people do: they confuse *heat* and *temperature*. They are not the same thing.

We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't. If we give you a pad that fades at 1000F, you get on our case that our pads suck and you'll never buy them again. If we provide you with a material that is so fade free that the next part of the system fails (backing plate, seals, etc) you tell us how much our pads suck and you'll never buy them again.

You guys ever wonder why PFC is quickly getting out of the OE caliper racing market? Think this might have anything to do with it???

lateapex911
05-01-2004, 04:29 PM
Slightly off topic, but as we have arrived at the theory part, lets look at cooling.

Simply, as Matt alludes to, cooling is the largest variable that will affect the pad material, backing material, et al.

So,....what do the experts recomend as the best and most effective cooling method?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Carbotechmatt
05-01-2004, 04:39 PM
Ducting directly to the caliper, not the rotor. And hose 1 foot away blowing in the general direction of the caliper doesn't count.

I would also try to find a wheel that is as open as possible for the best airflow.

grjones1
05-01-2004, 08:50 PM
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Brakes? What Brakes? We don't use no steenking brakes!

I couldn't resist.
GRJ

Greg Gauper
05-03-2004, 01:34 PM
I finally got a chance to test the Carbotech XP1109 compound at Blackhawk this weekend in my Civic. The results are encouraging. What I found was the pad do seem to conduct a bit more heat to the caliper, which is understood from the above comments. The stock Honda calipers have a great deal of flex and this seemed to get worse as the brakes got hotter, resulting in a somewhat soft pedal, however if I tapped the brakes once to pump them up, they worked fine. I suspect the heat and caliper flex are causing the pads to get kicked back slightly. I do have ducting directed towards the rotor but will redirect it towards the caliper. I'm not blaming the pads, this is a problem with Honda calipers that I have always faced.

The pads did seem to be more rotor friendly than my Hawk Blues. My brake fluid was fine and I wasn't boiling them. I'm running Wilwood 575 but I am considering switching to Valvaline synthetic since it has only a few degrees lower boiling point, but looks like it might be a bit more friendly to the seals, and is about 1/3 the cost of Wilwood.

Note: this was on an ex-IT car now converted to production, so with the racing slicks the brakes are getting a much harder workout than they would with DOT tires, and the cantilever tire design tends to block the cooling air to the rotors more, so ducting is required. Also, the national races are longer than regionals. I don't expect any problems at any of the other Cen-Div tracks if they lived thru a longer National race.

I'm curious...are the backing plates painted with one of those temperature activate paints like they use for checking rotor or caliper temps? They turned the weirdest pink color after I bedded them per the instructions.

Carbotechmatt
05-09-2004, 12:13 PM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I'm curious...are the backing plates painted with one of those temperature activate paints like they use for checking rotor or caliper temps? They turned the weirdest pink color after I bedded them per the instructions.</font>

No, just plain brown paint. The pink-ish color is typical after a few good heat cycles.

Scott Nutter
05-10-2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by Knestis:
If the pad material is STILL SOUND and the backing plate has gotten hot enough to distort (I've seen this), then there are two choices, given no change in ambient temperature - (a) brake earlier to put the time quotient more in your favor in the heat-shedding rate, or (B) get more air to the brakes. Boiled fluid and failed seals? Even more so. I completely fail to understand how different compounds will fix those problems.

K

I think different compounds address these problems by their CF. If a pad bites like your 2 year old niece then you know you don't have get on the brakes till very late, however if they have bite more like a suckling babe then even though you know they are never going to give up you might have to get on them a bit sooner thus increasing the braking time.

Anyhow I ran Hawk Blues on a 1st Gen Rx7 and they ate rotors. I am currently trying Carbotech Panther XP front/Plus rear and after 100 miles of track time the pads and rotors were great. I was at the track on Sunday, got 200+ miles in and I did notice that I had to apply more pedal pressure than I did with the Blues but the Carbotech's never faded and I actually started to like the extra effort (more modulation). I have not however pulled the tires to check the rotors/pads since I unloaded the car @ 9:30PM and had to get up @ 5:00AM for a flight to NC.

If the thread is still recent Next week, I'll post my findings.