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View Full Version : Quest to lose weight - HVAC



planet6racing
10-29-2003, 01:18 PM
OK, so now that it is the off season in the Great White North, I'm in the process of searching for the last bits of weight to remove to make minimum weight (and, yes, not all of it is coming from the car. 20# is coming from me!).

Anyway, I pulled the entire HVAC system out of the car yesterday in order to selectively restore parts. I know this is a potentially touchy issue, and I'm sure that some people will turn this into an un-needed debate, but...

What, besides the heater core, needs to go back in? I've read of people with everything but the heater core out, others who just have a defrost fan, etc. but I'm not certain which way to go (I know I want the defroster, though). Any opinions/suggestions are welcome.


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

John Herman
10-29-2003, 03:01 PM
Bill, the way I approached it, I have all the components that a factory non A/C car would have.

cherokee
10-29-2003, 03:14 PM
I liked having my heater in my car...the first two races of the season it snowed on me...cranked up the heater full blast.

ddewhurst
10-29-2003, 03:20 PM
Bill, what is your total weight as you come off track & with what ammount of fuel ?

What is your car year & model ?

David

planet6racing
10-29-2003, 03:26 PM
total weight, before starting the quest, was 2520 pounds with 1/2 tank (I'll be more precise next time I weight it).

My current weight is ~195. Spec weight for the combo is 2360. Gas is about 6#/gallon, so half a tank is approximately 30#. Car is a '92 Saturn SL2.

{edit}Part of the known overweight is due to heavy stock aluminum wheels and Kumho tires. When I start to get better in my times, I'll go to the hoosiers, but new wheels will be on the way this winter... {/edit}
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited October 29, 2003).]

Greg Gauper
10-29-2003, 04:01 PM
Dumb question....and I can't remember since it's been since the open house since I looked closely at your car.

Have you removed all the stuff that you are legally allowed to remove?

This includes carpets, head liners, seats, sound deadening, etc?

FYI, lighter wheels & tires are beneficial for two reasons.

1) Reducing the weight of the car and

2) (more importantly) reducing the unsprung rotational mass. This makes a big difference in acceleration and braking. Doesn't help cornering or top end though.

planet6racing
10-29-2003, 04:29 PM
Yes, all that stuff is out of there. Now that the dash is out, I'm getting the last bit of the insulation out. Plus, if I feel ambitious this winter, I'm going to attack the undercoating on the bottom of the car...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

ddewhurst
10-29-2003, 08:16 PM
Bill, I don't see a 1992 SL2 classed. I see a 1995 SL2 classed. Are all Saturn cars 4 doors ?

David

planet6racing
10-29-2003, 11:19 PM
Not that this has anything to do with the original topic...

The classification for the SL2 was corrected in the April FasTrack to read 91-95, not 1995 like someone incorrectly put into the GCR. And, no, not all saturns are 4-doors. The SC2 and SC are 2 doors.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

ddewhurst
10-30-2003, 12:25 AM
Bill, don't want to start a pissing match but to say "Not that this has anything to do with the original topic..."

The topic was geting a car down to minimum weight or below correct.

Me not knowing the different models of Saturn I would bet I could get a 2 door model SC or SC2 down to 2330 pounds a bunch quicker than I could get a SL2 4 door down to 2360 pounds.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

ps: I know I can get my 1st gen RX-7 down to 2380 pounds with driver & fuel at empty.

planet6racing
10-30-2003, 10:56 AM
I wasn't trying to be specific to my car, I was asking what components of the HVAC system needs to go back in. I am trying to get a feel for what others have done so that I can decide what to do...

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Greg Amy
10-30-2003, 11:26 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...trying to get a feel for what others have done so that I can decide what to do...</font>

Exactly as John stated: you must install '...all the components that a factory non A/C car would have.'

dieselsdad
10-30-2003, 11:15 PM
I took everything out except for the heater core itself. I took the heater core out of the plastic container it was in with all of the ducting and baffles. I completely gutted everything that had to do with the ac. If it worked with the heater as well as the ac I removed it. I read the rules to say, all ac components could be removed in whole or in part. Someones gonna flame me for this I can tell.

TBreu007
10-31-2003, 01:11 AM
Dieselsdad, I read the rules the same way...heater core and heater lines are in, but everything else is out. Blower, ducts, etc. GCR states all AC equipment may be removed, but specifically states heater core must remain, so that's the only thing left.

Living in S. Florida, I don't have to worry about snow, so the heater is just one more thing than can malfunction.

Greg Amy
10-31-2003, 09:14 AM
<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...all ac components could be removed in whole or in part.</font>

That's completely correct, but where does it allow removal of heater components in whole or in part?

To further that thought, take two cars side-by-side, identical except one has factory A/C and one does not. Using your example the A/C-equipped car can remove ducting, blower, heater case, etc, yet the non-A/C-equipped car has to leave it all in. Not logical.

If, however, you are assuming that "air conditioning" means anything used to change the temperature of the air inside the car then I'd call that a tortured interpretation of the rules. The term "air conditioning" has, and always will be, a vernacular and commonly-accepted term to mean a device that changes the temperature and humidy of the air using a compressor, condensor, evaporator, refrigerant, etc. If you are removing common "heater" components under the guise that it 'conditions the air', I'd argue that you're illegal to the rules.

If you disagree, I suggest you go to a dealer and order a car without "air conditioning" and see what you get...

ddewhurst
10-31-2003, 09:31 AM
The words are: Air conditioning SYSTEM may be removed in part or whole.

IMHJ, John Herman & grega have hit the nail on the head.

Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

planet6racing
10-31-2003, 09:35 AM
Ah, now we're getting to the root of the matter as to why I asked the question! I can see it both ways, each with their own interpretation of the rules...

I know this discussion was had before and I think someone mentioned that it was protested, but I can't remember the result.

I am trying to avoid this turning into a flame fest. Greg has made some good points, but I can reasonably see the other interpretation as well.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

JIgou
10-31-2003, 10:06 AM
Flame fest or not, legal or not....it SURE is nice to have a functioning system to blow warm air at the windshield when it's raining and the windows start to fog up....

Jarrod

planet6racing
10-31-2003, 10:16 AM
Jarrod:

I completely agree. No matter what, I'm keeping my defroster!

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

dieselsdad
10-31-2003, 10:28 AM
I LOVE CONTROVERSY! My rule book soesn't say anything about 2 cars, one with ac and one without. It says, ac can be removed in whole or in part, that's what I did. The fact that the ac air actually blows through most of the same heater ducts is the gray area that I thought allowed me to do this. To me, these gray areas are what make building a car fun. They are what make finding an edge over someone else possible. I didn't have to do it to get the weight down, I did it because it looked like a birds nest under there and I wanted to clean it up.

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mikey

Geo
11-01-2003, 07:11 AM
Originally posted by planet6racing:
Ah, now we're getting to the root of the matter as to why I asked the question! I can see it both ways, each with their own interpretation of the rules...

I'm just curious if anyone knows whether this controversy has ever been settled by the COA?

I don't care much one way or the other because my car will still have the heater and the Sentra I borrow still has it. Makes a big difference sometimes. At a race in January it was cold and raining and I didn't get a Q time time since I took too long getting the car set up for rain so I started dead last. When I got to the first turn I found the pole sitting ITE Porsche 951 in the mud. I talked with the driver and he couldn't see a thing. He took his whole heater/defroster system out. My windscreen was clear all race long. http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

Eagle7
11-01-2003, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by Geo:
...When I got to the first turn I found the pole sitting ITE Porsche 951 in the mud. I talked with the driver and he couldn't see a thing...
Wouldn't it have been better to keep racing? http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

ddewhurst
11-01-2003, 12:27 PM
***Wouldn't it have been better to keep racing?***

That shows to go ya that it's the bench racing season. Have Fun http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

lateapex911
11-01-2003, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by dieselsdad:
I took everything out except for the heater core itself. I took the heater core out of the plastic container it was in with all of the ducting and baffles. I completely gutted everything that had to do with the ac. If it worked with the heater as well as the ac I removed it. I read the rules to say, all ac components could be removed in whole or in part. Someones gonna flame me for this I can tell.

Well, I don't know if you will call this a flame, but I will be clear that I disagree, and think you went over the line.

The rule states that you may remove any or all of the "A/C system". It does not say: "Any or all of the HVAC system, excluding the raw heater core".

I would submit that:

-A/C is the part that cools the air.
-Heating is the part that warms the air.
-HVAC is the system that encompasses and supports the heating, ventilation, and air conditioning functions. Clearly some of the parts in the system are dual function...they provide support to both temperature modification aspects of the system. As such, they are NOT purely 'air conditioning' parts, per se'. They are HVAC parts, which are clearly not mentioned in the rule.

I would also submit that if someone were to protest you, I would be very surprised if it wsn't upheld. Perhaps the rule needs to be made more obvious and clearly stated, but removing the plastic holding the heatercore would seem to me to be beyond 'reaasonable'.




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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Chris Wire
11-02-2003, 02:20 AM
My dash bar for my cage runs inside of the dash panel. Therefore:

a) heater core is in minus the heater case since it was impossible to install between the bar and firewall,

B) evap and case are gone

c) blower and case are in but not in original location which is far right dash corner. Too much stuff in the way.

d) dash ducting (amounting to probably less than a pound) is still in but useless.

Word of caution: Sometimes Tech likes to try to bust people by having the driver power up the car and flipping the blower fan switch to see if it works. I don't believe the GCR says that the system has to be functional, it just has to be there.

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Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

gsbaker
11-02-2003, 02:31 PM
This brings up one of the benefits of an open-cockpit car: the windshield never fogs up! http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/smile.gif

Of course, it can get really wet inside, but at least the windshield never fogs up.

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Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

The Sleeper
11-27-2003, 12:15 AM
THe way I read the rule, any item that the cooled air from the a/c system touches, and or passes though along with supported components may be removed. Mine will have a solo heater core mounted to the firewall,Ohh with 2" heater hoses, now if the rule stated "the heating system" and components then I would leave the housing ducts etc...

The Sleeper
11-27-2003, 12:23 AM
Ohhh and a little trick I learned years ago running GT2, get a turbo injector cooler fan off a 280 zx leave in your defroster ducts, the ones mounted on the dash right below the windshield, duct the fan to both ducts on the dash(it has a built on splitter)... no fogged up windshield, it`s not the temp of the air it`s the volume that keeps the w/s fog free.I also used fog-free on the inside. And the whole setup weights less then 5 lbs. Never had to fight the windshield rain or dry.

jc836
11-27-2003, 07:36 AM
Realizing that each of us has the desire to do the maiximum to lower the weight of our cars-I took the simplest approach to the AC/Heater. If it is part of the car as new from the factory-it stays. If it is an optional add-on component it goes. Thus the Heater box, core, blower, ducting, hoses and control unit are in my car (the defroster works!). Honda in its wisdom offered AC as an option and the only part I had to get from the yard was the duct from the blower to the heater case to return the car to original. I did salvage the rubber plugs for the firewall as well. What I removed based on the rule as written were all of the AC parts that were dealer installed. I will agree that some have taken a sound approach and have bypassed the entire system, you just cannot remove it.
The weight of the CRX AC is ~45 pounds ready to ship; I have no idea what the heater core and blower assemblies weigh and will assume one would benefit from the extra radiator capacity anyway.
Just my 2 cents--Happy Thanksgiving

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

ddewhurst
11-27-2003, 09:40 AM
Bill, it has been almost one month since this thread was first posted. Our off season is is approx five months & you were going to loose 20 pounds. That would average 4 pounds per mounth. Please don't take this as a slam/flame or anything negative. I have gained 7 pounds since we quit racing in mid October. Dam beer............

How ya doing http://Forums.ImprovedTouring.com/it/wink.gif
David

planet6racing
11-27-2003, 11:29 AM
David:

Not so good. Holidays and vacation are killing me. I'm back to the weight I was at last year at this time, which is now 25# too much...

Starting December 1, things are going to have to change!


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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Eric Parham
12-03-2003, 11:51 PM
Doesn't "all A/C equipment" mean anything thats different between an A/C car and a non-A/C car? So, if the two versions of a given car have *no* HVAC components in common (for example, except perhaps the heater core itself), then everything else *may* be removed. Nowhere does the GCR say that non-A/C components from a non-A/C equipped car must be sourced, adapted (if necessary, since not ALL of the A/C components *have* to be removed), and installed.

The interpretation problem comes in because some make/models are like my example (completely different parts between A/C and non), while others share most of the same parts. So, is it "fair" to make the car that shares the same parts keep them while allowing the car models that have different parts to remove them (e.g., core housing, ducts, vacuum controls, even heater hoses, etc.)? I'd guess not.

That's one reason why the other admittedly tortured interpretations can be acceptable in this particular case, at least when presented by a driver of a "same parts" type of car (who is deprived of the better argument). It's easier to accept such interpretations than to completely rewrite the rule, IMHO.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited December 03, 2003).]

itafiero
12-04-2003, 04:24 AM
Yes you are correct but we're arguing a few pounds of difference which only comes in to play with very consistent drivers. I'm one of those not consistent drivers where 80#s may make a difference but 2# won't. Better to focus on other areas of the rules that are even more confused than this one IMHO.


Originally posted by Eric Parham:
Doesn't "all A/C equipment" mean anything thats different between an A/C car and a non-A/C car? So, if the two versions of a given car have *no* HVAC components in common (for example, except perhaps the heater core itself), then everything else *may* be removed. Nowhere does the GCR say that non-A/C components from a non-A/C equipped car must be sourced, adapted (if necessary, since not ALL of the A/C components *have* to be removed), and installed.

The interpretation problem comes in because some make/models are like my example (completely different parts between A/C and non), while others share most of the same parts. So, is it "fair" to make the car that shares the same parts keep them while allowing the car models that have different parts to remove them (e.g., core housing, ducts, vacuum controls, even heater hoses, etc.)? I'd guess not.

That's one reason why the other admittedly tortured interpretations can be acceptable in this particular case, at least when presented by a driver of a "same parts" type of car (who is deprived of the better argument). It's easier to accept such interpretations than to completely rewrite the rule, IMHO.

[This message has been edited by Eric Parham (edited December 03, 2003).]

lateapex911
12-04-2003, 08:53 PM
No, I don't think comparing different versions of the same model is valid.

See my above post, AC stuff is AC stuff!

If the car in question has a different and unweildy HVAC system, then perhaps it wsn't the ideal choice.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

Geo
12-04-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by lateapex911:
If the car in question has a different and unweildy HVAC system, then perhaps it wsn't the ideal choice.

Actually, it can be really easy. The 944 has a completely separate AC system that feeds into a single duct into the heater box. Couldn't have been easier or more straight-forwrd to remove

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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com